Hide in plain sight - overly powerful?

[Darklone]

Hmm

You guys forgot to consider some things.

Shadowdancer walks away from opponent and hides. Why shouldn't he simply use his full attack action by throwing or shooting next round plus hide away with the Expert Tactician or haste?

That way no double moves and more attacks.

Now the rules question:

If I am hidden, is the enemy flatfooted or not? I'd say no, but I am effectively invisible. Thus sneak attacks, +2 to hit and he loses his Dex bonus (if no uncanny dodge).

How do you handle this?

 

[dvvega]

Darklone: Expert Tactician is only for melee attacks (pg 38 of Song and Silence - which is the official version of it), you can't do a move-equivalent action or cast a spell (touch attack spells are okay since they're melee).

Haste would work of course.

As for being hidden. The minute you attack that round (full attack or otherwise), I would deem you "visible" OR that you use the Sniping rules in Song and Silence.

If "visible" you have to take a new move-equivalent action next round to re-hide, if Sniping, you can only make one ranged attack per round.

And yes if you are hidden, the enemy is basically open to sneak attacks, with a +2.

 

[Gaiden]

I am not clear on hide equating to a move equivalent action. In the PHB it states you "can move up to one-half your speed and hide at no penalty." It does not say it requires a move equivalent action to hide. This is why I assumed hide to be a free action - you can hide while doing something else. You hide while moving. Now hide my be a special case as it would not make sense to say that you can hide while attacking. However, as you hide while moving, I see no reason why a SD with spring attack could not hide while doing both parts of the movement. I also disagree with the one move equivalent action for spring attack. Spring attack specifically states that "provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your base speed". You could technically do two move equivalent actions each at half your base speed such that the total distance moved equaled your base speed. Lastly, what is this about the -20 penalty for hiding in plain sight?!? The hide skill says that hiding under direct observation is impossible. The whole point of the ability is that you don't have to create a diversion to hide (using the bluff skill and taking the -10 penalty on the hide check). You don't have a penalty to the hide check!

 

[alaric]

i have to disagree with you on some of your rules interpretations.

Two questions:

The description for Su abilities in the MM says that Su abilities require standard actions to activate unless otherwise stated. Hide in plain sight says that you can hide while being observed. Hide is a free action. Therefore, I would think, hiding while being observed is also a free action.

i don't think you can make that assumption. SU abilities require a standard action, the fact that the ability is based on hide has nothing to do with that. Unless you can find a reference that says Hide in Plain Sight is an exception to this rule i would have to assume that it's a standard action. This makes all the hit and run tactics a little bit harder.

But there seems no reason why the SD could not just sit in the shadows and observe his opponent for some X amount of time and then attack outside of the round scheme - reinitiating combat causing new intiative and another surprise round.

i don't see how it's possible for the "round system" to stop if one or both combatants are still actively trying to assault each other. This is roughly equivalent to a rogue saying "Hey wait, let's talk this through", pausing a few seconds and then attacking the guy again and saying he's flat footed. No way would i allow that, and i wouldn't allow this tactic either. If you waited so long that the enemy thought you had fled, and was putting away his weapons or tending to wounds or something i would allow it, but i doubt many enemies would fall for this trick over and over again.

Lastly, the readied action requires the opponent to know where the attack is coming from. If the opponent does not know about the attack until it strikes him, I don't think he could ready an action for the attack - maybe right after the attack.

I disagree with this one as well. If someone was surrounded by enemies, readying an action to "kill the first one that get's close to me" is completely valid from what i can tell. Since 3E has no facing it can be assume that when fighting a hiden opponent the enemy will be turn rapidly trying to not let anyone get behind him and such.

I think most of the "unbalancing" aspects of the ability are from rules extensions i don't agree with. Barring that though, by the time you get Hide in Plain Sight you are approaching 7th level, at which time the wizard has fly and improved invisibility, which is a much scarier combo.


[edited for formating]

 

[dr_nukem]

By Alaric:
"i don't think you can make that assumption. SU abilities require a standard action, the fact that the ability is based on hide has nothing to do with that. Unless you can find a reference that says Hide in Plain Sight is an exception to this rule i would have to assume that it's a standard action. This makes all the hit and run tactics a little bit harder. "

While I agree that the rules as stated would lead to this assumption, I think the rules are poorly written to explain what HiPS allows.

It does not make sense to me that if a SD wants to hide around a corner, he uses a MEA to hide, but if he wants to HiPS he has to do a Std Action. There is no difference to a SD...he simply hides. He is better at hiding than most other people.

I see this exact logic working for the Monk's SU movement. The monk does not choose to move normal vs move SU fast. He just MOVES.

By Alaric:
"I think most of the "unbalancing" aspects of the ability are from rules extensions i don't agree with. Barring that though, by the time you get Hide in Plain Sight you are approaching 7th level, at which time the wizard has fly and improved invisibility, which is a much scarier combo. "

That's it. HiPS as part of a movement action, or as a MEA, is NOT unbalancing. It is an 8th level equivalent ability (need 10 ranks in hide, 7th lvl, PRIOR to becoming a SD, 8th lvl). Look what other character's can do by 8th level...or other prestige classes for that matter. HiPS is not overpowering, it is just different from other abilities.

By Gaiden:
"You could technically do two move equivalent actions each at half your base speed such that the total distance moved equaled your base speed. Lastly, what is this about the -20 penalty for hiding in plain sight?!? The hide skill says that hiding under direct observation is impossible. The whole point of the ability is that you don't have to create a diversion to hide (using the bluff skill and taking the -10 penalty on the hide check). You don't have a penalty to the hide check!"

I agree here. I think our group is going to go with hide & HiPS as a MEA, so I won't be able to do this, but I agree with your logic. I also agree about the penalty check. HiPS is simply a hide. You don't have to be in the shadow to do it, there just has to be *A* shadow *WITHIN* 10'.

 

[Skaros]

dr_nukem,

I think there is a defniite difference between hiding around a corner from someone and hiding in plain sight.

One requires nothing more than an ordinary hide skill with no supernatural abilities tacked on. The other is quite different than normal hiding as you make yourself unseen while directly in someone's line of sight.

Requiring a standard action in that case doesn't seem out of line to me. In one case, you're just doing what any ordinary person can succeed at with high rolls (even without skill points in hide). In the other you are using some pseudo-magical ability to make yourself unseen.

-Skaros

 

[CRGreathouse]

That argument is sound, as long as you are willing to agree that level 9+ monk speeds, stunning fists, ki strike, diomond body, etc. take standard actions.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I think it is a fairly cool ability, but considering most environments provide multiple adequate areas to just normally hide with, I'm not sure it is a massively powerful ability. In most terrains the same tactic but with ranged weapons at 30' or less could be done simply because the character could also bluff to distract, and then hide again, or in many areas simple move and hide with such absurd ability no one will find you.

And as for the guy who mentioned how his dm had to map out where all the shadows were, I just say huh. Really check thing sout at day time, shadows are everywhere. Unless you are in an open plain with nothing at all near you shadows are around. Heck if you just have your party members near you there are shadows around. You may not be able to hide in your own shadow, but you can still hide in your friends, or heck even your enemies.

 

[dr_nukem]

So sayeth the SAGE

From the Sage:
----------
From: Dr. Nukem

DrNukem:
Hide in Plain Site (HiPS) by definition is a Supernatural Ability. Supernatural Abilities require a standard action to activate.

The Monk's speed becomes a SU ability at 9th level. Does a monk have to spend a Std Action to move greater than 60' in one action?

Sage:
No.

DrNukem:
Based on that logic, does HiPS require a Std Action to activate or is it an enhancement to Hide?

SAGE:
No, it works just like the hide skill (you use it as a move action as part of a move action).

DrNukem:
An official ruling would be very nice as my group has been discussing this for days now.

Sage:
There it is.

Skip Williams
RPG R&D

 

[Forrester]

The Nature of Shadows

Wow, what a neat subject line.

Anyway, here's a question for all of you -- is there the Darkvision equivalent of shadow?

It seems like there probably should be -- after all, you don't get penalties to Hide against those with Darkvision, even though they can see without any light at all.

So you can kind of hide in shadows . . . even though, technically, shadows shouldn't be hurting their vision at *all*.

I ask because I'm running a humanoid-centered campaign, and they are about to take a trip down into the Underdark. Where everyone has Darkvision. And the Necromancer has learned spells like "Deep Shadow" which makes shadows thicker, giving concealment -- and one of the characters, a Dark Creeper, is on a Shadowdancer path.

And it would be quite lame if none of this stuff worked in the Underdark.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep ruling it like I have -- that there *are* shadows in Darkvision (where they come from, I don't know) -- but I'm curious as to whether anyone else has thought about this.