Hide in plain sight - overly powerful?

[Ridley's Cohort]

And as for the guy who mentioned how his dm had to map out where all the shadows were, I just say huh. Really check thing sout at day time, shadows are everywhere. Unless you are in an open plain with nothing at all near you shadows are around. Heck if you just have your party members near you there are shadows around. You may not be able to hide in your own shadow, but you can still hide in your friends, or heck even your enemies.

I agree with you. But It is not difficult to make all the shadows disappear in a 10-15' radius. If I can guess where you are, then HiPS will not help you.

 

[TrizzlWizzl]

Re: So sayeth the SAGE

DrNukem:
Based on that logic, does HiPS require a Std Action to activate or is it an enhancement to Hide?

SAGE:
No, it works just like the hide skill (you use it as a move action as part of a move action).

Sweet! That means I used HiPS correctly in my game! I was beginning worry...

 

[TrizzlWizzl]

The DMG Comes to the Rescue!

I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep ruling it like I have -- that there *are* shadows in Darkvision (where they come from, I don't know) -- but I'm curious as to whether anyone else has thought about this.

DMG, p74: Darkvision does not allow character to see anytning that they could not see otherwise - invisible objects are still invisible and illusions are still visible as whay they seem to be.

Make of it what you will. Personally, I feel it basically says that the Hide skill works against creatures with darkvision... consequently, Hide in Plain Sight would work as well.

However, the flavor text describes the vision as 'shadowless'. After a couple years of 3e, though, I've come to view flavor text as just that... when making rulings I go by the actual rules. The flavor text is just to help all assembled get the same general idea in their head.

BTW, the PHB describes darkvision as being 'just like normal visioin, just in black and white' in the actual rule part of Half-Orc racial abilities.

 

[Forrester]

Re: The DMG Comes to the Rescue!

DMG, p74: Darkvision does not allow character to see anytning that they could not see otherwise - invisible objects are still invisible and illusions are still visible as whay they seem to be.

Make of it what you will. Personally, I feel it basically says that the Hide skill works against creatures with darkvision... consequently, Hide in Plain Sight would work as well.

I don't know that you're quite getting my point.

Let's say that there's a Shadowdancer fighting in a place with NO LIGHT AT ALL. (Typical Underdark environment.) Technically, there are no shadows, right? You need light in order to have a shadow.

Can the Shadowdancer Hide In Plain Sight against a foe in such a situation?

 

[Gaiden]

Using 2e shadow mages as a reference - in order to have shadows there has to be some sort of light source. In total darkness shadow mages were less powerful then if there was some light.

 

[twjensen]

Errata

unless you have expert tactician

Expert Tactician only works for attack actions and has the pre-req of combat reflexes in the corrected rules. Still very powerful, but no longer the uber-death feat it once was.

 

[twjensen]

Re: Re: The DMG Comes to the Rescue!

I don't know that you're quite getting my point.

Let's say that there's a Shadowdancer fighting in a place with NO LIGHT AT ALL. (Typical Underdark environment.) Technically, there are no shadows, right? You need light in order to have a shadow.

Can the Shadowdancer Hide In Plain Sight against a foe in such a situation?

We're getting into house-rules territory here, but I'd say that if the SD has darkvision, then he can HiPS even in total darkness. Basically, the SD needs to be able to see what he's hiding from in order to hide from it. Same as I'd rule for a regular rogue trying to hide in the usual way.

It's no less unbalancing than having a wizard cast Improved Invis. on the rogue and be done with it!

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I agree with you. But It is not difficult to make all the shadows disappear in a 10-15' radius. If I can guess where you are, then HiPS will not help you.

How is it easy to remove shadows. Am I missing something, the only thing I can think of is light spells, and those would likely create shadows as well. And as I said while you can't hide in your own shadow, I don't see a prohibition against hiding in your friends shadows or your enemies shadows. So if in a party you should always be able to hide as long as there is a light source which would then produce shadows from your party memebers bodies.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

How is it easy to remove shadows. Am I missing something, the only thing I can think of is light spells, and those would likely create shadows as well. And as I said while you can't hide in your own shadow, I don't see a prohibition against hiding in your friends shadows or your enemies shadows. So if in a party you should always be able to hide as long as there is a light source which would then produce shadows from your party memebers bodies.

What you are missing is that I can move my light source during my action while the SD is standing still. Until normal, even quite well lit conditions, there are always a few shadows around. But it is also quite easy to completely remove shadows in a small area by tossing a couple torches around and then shining a lantern in the area. Spells work even better.

The net effect is if I can guestimate where the SD is within 5-10 feet, I can remove every shadow within 10 feet of him and HiPS then fails.

If you consider a shadow any area than is less well lit then another, I suppose you are right, there always will be shadows. If that is what the designers intended, then there is no point in mentioning shadows at all mechanically, because there will always be a cobweb somewhere. But I do not think that is the correct interpretation.

If you want to be literal and say any kind of shading in lighting is a shadow, then I can be literal and say that there are no shadows in the rules of D&D. Strangely, light sources illuminate an area with a well define radius. So within 60' of my Light spell there are no unlit areas. Therefore there are no shadows and HiPS only works in complete darkness.

If you want to use common sense to allow HiPS to work at all, you have to allow common sense to apply to counter methods.

What I am talking about is how to handle a game of hide and seek with a SD.

The real advantage of HiPS is it lets you travel with your party without worrying about the terrain, or escape under the same circumstances. A normal Rogue cannot hide in a straight, normally lit, featureless hallway; he is automatically Spotted. A SD usually can. That is a powerful ability. No need to augment it further.

The thing I am concerned about is Hide is easy to pump up to very high levels. An optimized 10th level Hiding Rogue can automatically hit a Hide DC of 54 using only the core books. And there is no effective magic to penetrate Hide in the core rules Hide is actually more powerful than Invisibility in some important ways. So do not bend over backwards to make is more powerful.

 

[dr_nukem]

The real advantage of HiPS is it lets you travel with your party without worrying about the terrain, or escape under the same circumstances. A normal Rogue cannot hide in a straight, normally lit, featureless hallway; he is automatically Spotted. A SD usually can. That is a powerful ability. No need to augment it further.

The thing I am concerned about is Hide is easy to pump up to very high levels. An optimized 10th level Hiding Rogue can automatically hit a Hide DC of 54 using only the core books. And there is no effective magic to penetrate Hide in the core rules Hide is actually more powerful than Invisibility in some important ways. So do not bend over backwards to make is more powerful.

I pretty much agree with that statement. Hide can be very powerful, the only thing that keeps it in check is the opposed spot check. Against normal opponents (humanoid), Hide is probably better than Invis. Against many monsters that receive a hefty racial bonus to Spot (satyr gets a +15 I think), Hide isn't nearly as effective.

Given that, my current PC will become a 1st lvl SD at the start of our next session. He is basically ineffective in combat (low BAB and most of his magical items have to do with thieving, not fighting). His whole purpose in life is to get in, get whatever, and get out. So, this SD prestige class is perfect for him.

I initially started asking questions and other threads to find out what the rules are around HiPS, Hide, and sneak attacks...hoping to make my PC a bit more effective in combat. As it stands now, I think he will be a bit more effective, but not too much. As several people have pointed out, against a single opponent, if that opponent is even slightly intelligent, it could figure a way to negate the SD abilities fairly quickly. However, within his party, I think he will become even more effective...if he can sidetrack one opponent into readying an action to catch him...he'll be more effective than he is now! :->

Nukem