Hide in Plain Sight / Spring Attack

[Thanee]

As said above, in Song & Silence there is some similar action described (don't have the book here, so can't quote). It also has the -20 modifier to Hide after attacking IIRC.

The rules don't exactly state what kind of movement you take, when you are attacking, but it is rather obvious, that there should be a higher penalty for hiding when attacking, compared to just moving half your speed. Comparing with the few options given, the -20 category appears reasonable.

Of course, you can say, that it doesn't specifically say so, but that holds true for a lot of stuff. I guess you would never allow an unlimited use, use activated ring of true strike for 2000 gp, right, just to point out another famous example of what the rules don't specifically disallow.

Bye
Thanee

 

[jontherev]

As said above, in Song & Silence there is some similar action described (don't have the book here, so can't quote). It also has the -20 modifier to Hide after attacking IIRC.

The rules don't exactly state what kind of movement you take, when you are attacking, but it is rather obvious, that there should be a higher penalty for hiding when attacking, compared to just moving half your speed. Comparing with the few options given, the -20 category appears reasonable.

Of course, you can say, that it doesn't specifically say so, but that holds true for a lot of stuff. I guess you would never allow an unlimited use, use activated ring of true strike for 2000 gp, right, just to point out another famous example of what the rules don't specifically disallow.

Bye
Thanee

Correct. In Song and Silence, it gives a -20 penalty to hide after making an attack. I think it uses ranged attacks in the description, but that's because hiding in melee is not usually an option right? So, there's your precedent.

 

[laiyna]

This ability makes a high level rogue almost a valid playing option.... I mean whats a lvl 20 rogue compared to a lvl 20 wizard? But now........

 

[Thanee]

EDIT: Was mixing up things with NWN here!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Tobold Hornblower]

Thanks all. I'll look that up in Song & Silence tonight.

If they're talking about regular hiding after making an attack, that doesn't seem possible. Once you've been observed, I didn't think that it was possible to hide, even with a -20. That's why Hide in Plain Sight is better than regular hiding.

As to just rule zeroing something sensible for my game, it's not that simple. I'm considering taking Shadow Dancer in a few levels, so I will have to present this to my DM. My DM also plays in my game, and we both try to strictly follow the rules. When the rules are ambiguos, we agree on an interpretation, so both campaigns use the same set of rules. So I'm looking for what best fits the rules, that I can allow in my own game, and that my DM can agree with.

No one's addressed my last comment in my first post, "with expeditious retreat can you move your normal speed, half the doubled speed, and still hide?" That really makes no sense, but seems to be the rules. If I can't move 16' and hide without penalty, how does Expeditious Retreat help me move 30' and hide. Am I moving faster and more stealthily?

 

[mikebr99]

No one's addressed my last comment in my first post, "with expeditious retreat can you move your normal speed, half the doubled speed, and still hide?" That really makes no sense, but seems to be the rules. If I can't move 16' and hide without penalty, how does Expeditious Retreat help me move 30' and hide. Am I moving faster and more stealthily?

Expeditious Retreat gives you an enhancement bonus to your speed and jumping distance.

The hide skill is stillbased on your normal movment rate. So you still can only 15ft. per round without any penalty. and your full move is still 30ft. for -5 DC. But your running distance is now doubled for the -20 DC.

 

[jontherev]

Thanks all. I'll look that up in Song & Silence tonight.

If they're talking about regular hiding after making an attack, that doesn't seem possible. Once you've been observed, I didn't think that it was possible to hide, even with a -20. That's why Hide in Plain Sight is better than regular hiding.

As to just rule zeroing something sensible for my game, it's not that simple. I'm considering taking Shadow Dancer in a few levels, so I will have to present this to my DM. My DM also plays in my game, and we both try to strictly follow the rules. When the rules are ambiguos, we agree on an interpretation, so both campaigns use the same set of rules. So I'm looking for what best fits the rules, that I can allow in my own game, and that my DM can agree with.

No one's addressed my last comment in my first post, "with expeditious retreat can you move your normal speed, half the doubled speed, and still hide?" That really makes no sense, but seems to be the rules. If I can't move 16' and hide without penalty, how does Expeditious Retreat help me move 30' and hide. Am I moving faster and more stealthily?

I'm not totally sure, but I think it was referring to someone hidden, firing off an arrow, and then rehiding. However, if you weren't hidden, you could still try to hide...they would just know where you were (this assumes you had a place to hide in the first place). Of course, you could have turned invisible or teleported for all they know.

HIPS is better for many reasons...you can hide practically anywhere, and more importantly, in MELEE! I'd call that a significant improvement over hiding. But, I'd make them Shadowdancers hide at -20 if doing so in the middle of combat, right after smacking someone. I think that's fair enough, and seems to follow the rules imo.

ER doubles your movement right? I disagree with the other poster. Your "normal" speed is now doubled for all intents and purposes.

 

[mikebr99]

ER doubles your movement right? I disagree with the other poster. Your "normal" speed is now doubled for all intents and purposes.

Expeditious Retreat
Transmutation
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1, Travel 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Expeditious retreat provides you with amazing fleetness of foot, enabling you to run in great leaps and bounds. Your speed and maximum jumping distances both double (see the Jump skill, page 70). These benefits count as enhancement bonuses.
This spell can be used for attack as well as for flight; the name of the spell hints at the typical wizard’s attitude toward combat.

The normal rate of speed doesn't change.

 

[jontherev]

The normal rate of speed doesn't change.

Yeah, I know what the spell says, but I still disagree. "Normal Speed" is flavor text imo. Does it make sense to you that someone wearing boots of S&S who always (almost) moves at double speed suddenly and inexplicably can't move at double speed (halved of course) when moving towards a hiding place? No, it doesn't. The same goes for the spell imo. I consider the new doubled movement "normal". AFAIK, "normal" is not a defined game term.

 

[mikebr99]

Yeah, I know what the spell says, but I still disagree. "Normal Speed" is flavor text imo. Does it make sense to you that someone wearing boots of S&S who always (almost) moves at double speed suddenly and inexplicably can't move at double speed (halved of course) when moving towards a hiding place? No, it doesn't. The same goes for the spell imo. I consider the new doubled movement "normal". AFAIK, "normal" is not a defined game term.

But there has always been discrepancies like this... the buffing spells, no matter how long they last wont boost your spells per day. But an INT boosting magic item sure will.

Spells are a temporary boost, magic items and class skills are more permanent. So a 20th level Monk could move at 90ft. for only a -5... but at 180ft. it's -20.