Hide in plain sight

[Mistwell]

I think it has been determined that Shadowcraft Mages cannot use their concealing shadow for HiPS since it is, in fact, their own shadow.


J from Three Haligonians

"It has been determined" by who?

I don't think it's their "own" shadow. Your "own" shadow is caused by your own body blocking the light. This shadow is caused by shadowstuff, not your body blocking light. I don't see how it would be considered the same thing.

 

[Three_Haligonians]

"It has been determined" by who?

I don't think it's their "own" shadow. Your "own" shadow is caused by your own body blocking the light. This shadow is caused by shadowstuff, not your body blocking light. I don't see how it would be considered the same thing.

Well, to be fair, I only went off of what you said:

Interestingly, a Shadowcraft Made generates their own concealing shadows

(emphasis mine)

But now that I've gone and read it, I'd be willing to believe that HiPS would work with that particular ability.

I am almost positive, however, that in the last big thread about HiPS, it came out that the wording of a similar ability of a similar PrC made the two incompatible.

But your right, the mistake here is mine, I got confused what with the Shadowcraft Mage, the Shadow Mage, the Shadowcrafter and a number of other such PrCs.

J from Three Haligonians

 

[Sejs]

Ah, this one again.

It's like this: for a Shadowdancer to HiPS they need to be within 10' of some sort of shadow. The important part to note is that the shadow needs to present; it doesn't matter if the person you're trying to hide from can see the shadow or not, it just needs to be there.

Two additional points for you to considder:

1) Shadowdancers get darkvision at 2nd level. If darkvision negated the ability to HiPS because of an inability to see the shadow, then no Shadowdancer above 2nd level could use their defining class ability.

2) People with darkvision can indeed see shadows - shadows that are within the area of their darkvision would be noted as the place where the color stops. It'd be like looking at a lineup of three men, two of them are in full color while the third is done in black and white, essentially. They can see the shadows, they just don't restrict their ability to percieve.

 

[Mistwell]

Well, to be fair, I only went off of what you said:


(emphasis mine)

But now that I've gone and read it, I'd be willing to believe that HiPS would work with that particular ability.

I am almost positive, however, that in the last big thread about HiPS, it came out that the wording of a similar ability of a similar PrC made the two incompatible.

But your right, the mistake here is mine, I got confused what with the Shadowcraft Mage, the Shadow Mage, the Shadowcrafter and a number of other such PrCs.

J from Three Haligonians

You're right, my own damn fault for being lazy with my wording in the first post.

It is your own shadow in that you generate it...so if someone owns it, it's you (though I am not really sure it's a matter of ownership - more like you open a window to the plane of shadow and let some of the stuff leak in to the material plane). It is not your own shadow in the sense that it's caused by your body blocking light - which I think is the meaning of the "own" shadow restriction in the Hide in Plain Sight ability.

Anyway, the point is purely hypothetical. I've never known someone to take Shadowdancer and Shadowcraft Mage. It might make for an interesting character though, particularly since Shadowcraft mage has more skill points than a normal wizard, and their arcane spells tend to create illusions (silently cast while hidden) a rogue-like character would benefit from, and the Whisper Gnome works quite well with both classes (particularly with that silence sneak attack feat and hide and move silent bonuses).

 

[mvincent]

So we know that HiPS overrides this line in the Hide skill description:
"If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. "

But we're also saying that it overrides this line in the exploration section of the rules?:
“A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."

 

[Mistwell]

So we know that HiPS overrides this line in the Hide skill description:
"If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. "

But we're also saying that it overrides this line in the exploration section of the rules?:
“A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."

What an odd rule...given "invisible" is a form of concealment, as opposed to cover.

Yes, I would say Hide in Plain Sight overrides that rule, or else it would be a fairly useless ability in most adventures.

In fact, given the concealment rules, I'm not even sure that rule isn't contradicted by the concealment and hide rules themselves even without Hide in Plain Sight. Not to mention that I assume it's not trying to say that sleeping NPCs with Darkvision will auto-detect anyone hiding in 60' of them.

 

[Kurotowa]

In fact, given the concealment rules, I'm not even sure that rule isn't contradicted by the concealment and hide rules themselves even without Hide in Plain Sight. Not to mention that I assume it's not trying to say that sleeping NPCs with Darkvision will auto-detect anyone hiding in 60' of them.

The quote is out of context. The full quote is, "Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover. And is a subsection of the Vision And Light section.

Thus, it is entirely reasonable to understand it as refering to darkvision negating the concealing effects of poor lighting only. Not that it negates all forms of concealment.