hiding = invisible?

[MerakSpielman]

Flatfootedness due to surprise can only occur during the Surprise round, yeah. And flatfootedness due to not having acted can only occur during the first real round, yeah. But a clever rogue knows other ways to get his opponent flatfooted for purposes of sneak attacks later in the combat.

 

[Pielorinho]

That's not exactly correct, Merak: there's no such thing as being flatfooted in a combat after you've made your first action in the combat.

My question isn't how a rogue can cause such a condition, because he plainly can't. The question is how the rogue can utilize a hide check to deny an opponent her Dex bonus in a combat in which the opponent has acted but is unaware of the rogue's existence.

Daniel

 

[mikebr99]

The question is how the rogue can utilize a hide check to deny an opponent her Dex bonus in a combat in which the opponent has acted but is unaware of the rogue's existence.

Daniel

Either sniping or attacking from a hidden position... both w/-20 hide check... having already been hidden from the last round... and not moving at all, except for 5ft. step.


Mike

 

[RigaMortus]

there's no such thing as being flatfooted in a combat after you've made your first action in the combat.

Daniel

Actually, there are a couple. I would look up the Low-Blow feat from Races of Faerun. I'd also look under the Balance skill, as well as the Grease spell (as Grease is used to make an opponent do a Balance check).

 

[The Souljourner]

I don't agree with your interpretations about hide only giving you a surprise round. I always interpreted the -20 to hide while attacking as required to remain hidden *after* you attack. You are hidden up until you attack, and then if you don't take the -20, you're no longer hidden. Thus, you get a sneak attack because your opponent is denied his dex, because he doesn't know you're there. This should be possible in any round of combat, provided you were able to hide beforehand. This is exactly the way Invisibility works, except without the option to remain hidden. If you rule that you can't make a sneak attack while hidden, then you must also rule that you can't make a sneak attack while under the influence of the Invisibility spell, since both require you to be unseen, and both cause you to become seen when you attack.

-The Souljourner

 

[Methos of Aundair]

Quoted from the SRD under the Hide skill

It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

In my opinion, if a rogue was or is hiding at the beginning of combat and decides to attack from his hiding spot at a later time during the combat, he would suffer this penalty. Example: The pc’s are fighting a street gang in an alley, the rogue has hidden himself and none of the opponents notice him. The rogue informs the DM if any of the opponents gets close to the rogue’s position, the rogue will attempt to attack from hiding.

Now, in my opinion, if the rogue is attempting to attack while hiding after the combat is already started, the rogue must make an additional hide check (at a -20 penalty). If the rogue is successful he may attack the opponent with SA, since the opponent was unaware of the rogue and therefore lost his dex bonus, flat-footed, however you wish to call it. If the rogue failed his hide check, the opponent noticed the rogue and the rogue’s attack is considered a normal attack.

Originally posted by Souljourner

I always interpreted the -20 to hide while attacking as required to remain hidden *after* you attack.

I believe you our referring to this statement:

Quoted from the SRD under the Hide skill

Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

Notice though, that statement is located separate from the “It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging” statement, also located in the description under the Hide skill.

 

[billd91]

I don't agree with your interpretations about hide only giving you a surprise round. I always interpreted the -20 to hide while attacking as required to remain hidden *after* you attack. You are hidden up until you attack, and then if you don't take the -20, you're no longer hidden. Thus, you get a sneak attack because your opponent is denied his dex, because he doesn't know you're there. This should be possible in any round of combat, provided you were able to hide beforehand. This is exactly the way Invisibility works, except without the option to remain hidden. If you rule that you can't make a sneak attack while hidden, then you must also rule that you can't make a sneak attack while under the influence of the Invisibility spell, since both require you to be unseen, and both cause you to become seen when you attack.

-The Souljourner

That's more or less how I see it. Hide = invisibility as long as the spotter fails his spot check. Attacking the first time nets SA damage because the target is denied his dex bonus whether he's flat-footed or not (since, if this is 1 or 2 rounds into combat, he wouldn't be). If the character tries to remain hidden, he must then take the -20 to his Hide roll and still be in cover/concealment unless he has hide in plain sight.
If the rogue actually does have to close the distance to the target before the attack can be made, then another hide check at normal chances (if moving at half speed or less), at -5 if moving more than half but less than full, and -20 if charging should be made AND he has to remain in cover/concealment to succeed (unless, again, he has that hide in plain sight). The way I see it, changing the hiding character's status by moving triggers another spot check that the target of the attack might be able to benefit from when the attack finally fall. But if it's the initial attack that would cause the change in condition, it's too late for the target to get another spot... other than to prevent the rogue from remaining hidden for further attacks.

 

[Lamoni]

Edit: Everything in my post was stated better by those who beat me to my post. I have nothing to add other than I hate slow connections.

 

[Methos of Aundair]

This is exactly the way Invisibility works, except without the option to remain hidden. If you rule that you can't make a sneak attack while hidden, then you must also rule that you can't make a sneak attack while under the influence of the Invisibility spell, since both require you to be unseen, and both cause you to become seen when you attack.

Your forgetting something though, with invisibility you can walk around the entire battlefield without anyone being able to see you. Yes, there is a chance to notice you, but no one can see you. With the hide skill, you cannot do this. Let me point out something in the Hide skill:

Quoted from the SRD under the Hide skill

You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty.
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.

Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.
A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17thlevel ranger can do this even while being observed.

While invisible, you can move your full movement and stay invisible. You do not need cover or concealment to stay invisible. Even if someone is observing the square you are in, you are still invisible. Granted they could notice you, but you’re still invisible.

An invisible rogue could do a double move and completely circle an opponent several times while being invisible for several rounds, even talking to his opponent during this time. Then, later on, do only a move action and attack while invisible and still get the SA, even if the rogue was saying “hey fella, I’m about to sneak attack you”. Doesn’t matter, he would still get the SA. Yes, after the attack the invisibility is gone. With the Hide skill you cannot walk around the opponent, taunting him or talking to him, and be able to sneak attack, since the opponent would see you. I don’t care if the rogue rolled a nat 20 with high modifiers to his hide check, if the rogue stated he was going to walk around the opponent while hiding and talk to the opponent, I wouldn’t even allow the hide check.

Also note the line under hide that states: “If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.”

 

[Lamoni]

Also note the line under hide that states: “If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.”

A little off topic, but does that mean that if you stay in your 5' square you get a +40, or do you have to stay completely still (no drinking potions or casting spells with somatic components)? Moving in D&D usually means going from one 5' square to another, otherwise they state it as a move action, but I could see an exception here... is there any concensus?