High Fantasy v. Swords-n-Sorcery

[Psion]

Define them a bit better? I'm not so sure they're mutually exclusive.

Took the words right outa my mouth.

 

[diaglo]

definition please.

 

[Melan]

I think perhaps you have been watching too many Sword and Sandal epics.
Regards,
Agback

You can never watch too many of those.

 

[DrZombie]

I never understood the difference... Is high fantasy = disneyworldfantasy?

To me, Greyhawk is one of those : the NPC is either good or bad, no inbetweens. Wich is rather pathetic. So therefore I use the maps and the basics, but totally change the npc's.

Does that make me a swords and sorcery player?

 

[S'mon]

I never understood the difference... Is high fantasy = disneyworldfantasy?

D&D uses tropes of both high fantasy & swords & sorcery, eg the black & white Alignment system works fine for High Fantasy with its JudaeoChristian-influenced Good vs Evil focus, but not for sword & sorcery which is more Nietzschean in its approach to morality. By contrast the focus on amassing wealth as a character goal is very un-high fantasy. To me Forgotten Realms' exemplifies this schizophrenia at the heart of D&D, what I call the "Aribeth" or "gorgeous pouting elf paladin babe" syndrome, after a character in the Neverwinter Nights game. Heroic elf paladins - high fantasy. Gorgeous pouting babes in cleavage-revealing armour - Sword & Sorcery. Put them together - D&D.

BTW the best article ever on this field was in Dragon many years ago, 'The Highs & Lows of Fantasy', the author used The Silmarillion vs Thieves' World as the paradigmatic examples of High Fantasy vs Low Fantasy. Low Fantasy can include the 'realistic' approach which is very different in feel from S&S' 'pulp' approach - compare eg Harnworld with Hyborea - and Swords & Sorcery can involve epic conflicts reminiscent of high fantasy, eg the Elric series, but clear-cut good vs evil conflicts at the heart of the fictional universe are relatively rare in S&S. Thulsa Doom or the Rip Torn villain in 'Beastmaster' are evil, and the heroes who fight them relatively good, but these swords & sorcery worlds are fundamentally ones where power not morality is what matters.

 

[Darklone]

I don't like D&D as soon as it gets a stone-scissor-paper spellgame. So, if this was the question, count me in the Sword "as well as" Sorcery camp.

 

[hong]

To me, Greyhawk is one of those : the NPC is either good or bad, no inbetweens.

I can hear the howls of outrage from the Greyhawk fans already.

To facilitate discourse, enlighten the ignorant, and because I'm just a nice guy, here are some copy-and-paste jobs from Fantasy HERO:

Epic Fantasy

Epic Fantasy stories and game campaigns feature grand, romantic, monumental stories of the heroes' struggle against a vast, and often overwhelmingly powerful, enemy. ... Epic Fantasy is in many ways a meta-subgenre; your Fantasy HERO campaign could tell an Epic Low Fantasy story, an Epic High Fantasy story, or the like.

Central to all Epic Fantasy stories is the concept of the quest: a striving toward a desired, and distant, end goal. In most cases the heroes' quest literally involves a journey, as they travel over the map of the world toward a location of special significance. ... Along the way, the heroes meet new friends, encounter and overcome obstacles, and confront their enemy(ies) in numerous guises. Some of them may not even make it the entire way, but new heroes may join the quest in midstream.

In the best Epic Fantasy, the quest transcends the literal journey or striving toward a goal to reach the level of the spiritual and personal as well. Epic heroes change, becoming better people as a result of their experiences. A hard-bitten or embittered character may learn sympathy and compassion, an immature one responsibility and duty, a selfish one the joys of serving others. A character with a destiny (such as a throne to win, or a powerful spell to obtain) may achieve it; one who's the object of prophecy may fulfil it. Sometimes the characters reach the end of their quest with different goals and desires than when they started out.

...

The quintessential Epic Fantasy saga is, of course, JRR Tolkien's magnificent Lord of the Rings, which influences just about every other work in this subgenre (not to mention countless fantasy roleplaying campaigns). Tolkien's The Silmarillion can also be regarded as Epic Fantasy in many respects. The many imitators of Tolkien's work, such as Terry Brooks in The Sword of Shannara, sometimes introduce variations on the standard Epic Fantasy themes, but the core of the subgenre always remains intact. Other examples include Patricia McKillip's "Riddlemaster of Hed" trilogy, the Belgariad series by David Eddings, Stephen Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, Guy Gavriel Kay's Fionavar Tapestry trilogy, and some bodies of myth and legend (such as the Arthurian tales or parts of Norse mythology).

High Fantasy

The subgenre of High Fantasy has as its primary defining characteristic the presence of extensive, common, and/or powerful magic and magical beings. While spells and spellcasters are rare in Low Fantasy, and often uncommon (at best) in Epic Fantasy, in some High Fantasy games you can't take ten steps without tripping over someone who can cast spells. ... Some High Fantasy setting creators take the magic one step further, making it so common and easy to use that it replaces technology. ...

Furthermore, and equally as important, magic in High Fantasy is typically completely reliable. Wizards know exactly what they can do, and how well they can do it. Anyone who can cast a spell can do so without difficulty or chance of failure.

...

The prevalence and power of magic in High Fantasy lets you introduce elements and objects loosely known as "wonders" into the game. Examples include knights using dragons, griffins, or unicorns as steeds, cities and castles built among the clouds, and thrones carved from single, enormous gemstones. After all, where powerful magic exists, anything is possible!

In the minds of gamers, the conventions of High Fantasy are shaped less by literature than by the aesthetic and nature of [D&D]. ... Thus, at its best, High Fantasy gaming allows for the creation of grand and wondrous stories of adventure and enchantment, often verging toward Epic Fantasy. At its worst, the subgenre often degenerates into nigh-mindless hack-and-slash campaigns devoted solely to killing monsters, getting treasure, and acquiring magical items.

Besides the typical [D&D] campaign, examples of High Fantasy include Master of the Five Magics by Lyndon Hardy, the Earthsea trilogy of Ursula LeGuin, some of Jack Vance's Dying Earth stories, some bodies of myth and legend (such as certain fairy tales and Greek myths), Steven Erikson's Gardens of the Moon and Deadhouse Gates, the Deed of Paksennarion trilogy by Elizabeth Moon (a somewhat muted High Fantasy), Stephen Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, many of Steven Brust's novels, Roger Zelazny's Jack of Shadows, and some of the tales written by Lord Dunsany and James Branch Cabell.

Swords and Sorcery

Also known as "heroic fantasy" in the parlance of many publishers, Swords and Sorcery is an action-adventure-oriented sort of fantasy that focuses primarily on warriors (and to a lesser extent on roguish characters). The sword-wielding hero fights terrible monsters, rescues helpless maidens, and thwarts evil plots. In the best swords and sorcery tales, such as Howard's Conan stories, the hero relies on speed, stamina, wits, and skill as much as on muscles; poorer works emphasise brawn and brute force over everything else. Coupled with his warrior's skills the hero often has his refusal to become corrupted by the "softness" of more civilised life, which gives him an edge over more effete city folk and soldiers.

The Swords and Sorcery emphasis on action, combat, treasure, and danger suits many [fantasy] campaigns well (not surprising, given the strong influence of the likes of Howard and Leiber on fantasy roleplaying generally). While the character types available for play sometimes seem a little restrictive compared to High or Epic fantasy, most GMs bend the rules of the subgenre slightly to allow for more gaming-friendly spellcasting.

Examples of Swords and Sorcery fantasy include Robert A. Heinlein's Conan stories, Michael Moorcock's stories about Elric of Melnibone and Corum, Clark Ashton Smith's pulp fantasy fiction, CL Moore's "Jirel of Joiry" tales, Fritz Leiber's stories of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Gardner F Fox's stories about swordsmen like Kothar, Kyrik, and Niall of the Far Travels, Karl Edward Wagner's fiction featuring the enigmatic swordsman Kane, and many others.

(c. Steve Long, 2003)

 

[Desdichado]

So, hong -- who got it wrong, you or Steve Long? I thought Heinlein wrote stuff like Starship Troopers and Have Spacesuit, Will Travel, not the Conan stories.

 

[kipling]

The operating distinction I've used I probably cribbed from Hero Games' Fantasy Hero many years ago.

High Fantasy (or Epic Fantasy) often makes a conscious choice to deal with Good Vs. Evil. Magic is powerful and can be used by either side. Protagonists may or may not wield magic. The scale tends to be larger, and often involves higher society: kings, for example. "High" describes both scale and social level, but that's not an absolute requirement. Though the stakes of good-vs.-evil are clear-cut, the actions of the individuals may not be: one can start good and turn evil, or vice versa, but the stakes are clear.

Sword and Sworcery (which may or may not be low fantasy) does not have the good vs. evil focus; morality is less clear-cut and on a smaller scale. Protagonists tend not to have access to powerful magics; powerful magic tends to be restricted to bad guys who have to wait for the moon to be right or sacrifice the gorgeous virgin. A fast sword will often beat a spell. Powerful magic is often, well, evil. Howard's Conan stories often carry a flavour that barbarians are purer, less corrupt, less decadent--that's something one encounters elsewhere, but I think it's more about the rather darwinian world of S&S than about the genre itself. The scale tends to be smaller, restricted to an individual kingdom or duchy or city at a time, rather than encompassing the entire world.

Neither of these is absolute: these are categories applied after the writing, not before.

I like S'mon's summary that in S&S power, not morality, is what matters.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

I voted Sword-n-Sorcery, although I suspect what I'm really voting for is grittier, less magically intrusive, and fairly more plausible through the maintaining of numerous real-world conditions that the game's heroic fantasy rules don't normally allow for ("you fall 100' and make a big red mark" vs "you fall 100' and get up like nothing happened").

Edit: And gray, questionable morality... Nothing like watching two nations of basically good people fighting over a tiny stretch of land while various larger kingdoms/empires of basically good people manipulate the hell out of both of them.