High Fantasy
- Thread starter Gellion
- Start date
Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
Right, I don't know that low magic vs. high magic really plays into the question of high fantasy.
Tolkien doesn't really strike me as high magic. Indeed Martin modelled his use of magic off of Tolkiens'. But noone would claim that LotR isn't high fantasy.
I do think that high fantasy is very commonly, if not definitively, associated with a feel similar to the high middle ages.
At least, I had always heard it used in that context until I ran into the association between what I thought of as wild or epic fantasy and what seems to be many board members ideas of high fantasy.
Tolkien doesn't really strike me as high magic. Indeed Martin modelled his use of magic off of Tolkiens'. But noone would claim that LotR isn't high fantasy.
I do think that high fantasy is very commonly, if not definitively, associated with a feel similar to the high middle ages.
At least, I had always heard it used in that context until I ran into the association between what I thought of as wild or epic fantasy and what seems to be many board members ideas of high fantasy.
Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
See from my perspective I don't know that 'high' really refers to a proper system of categories.
If I were to define something as low fantasy I suppose it would be a setting where the fantastic intrudes on the real in a very low key way. Like Washington Irving's Legend of Sleepy Hollow.
Then there would be Swords and Sorcery which would be the sort of proto or near earths of Conan and Edgar Rice Burroughs.
High Fantasy would be the mideaval good vs. evil metaphysical fight in a complete world. Narnia and Middle Earth.
Epic Fantasy would be the hugely heroic mythical stuff. Elric and Illiad.
Wild Fantasy would cover the range from Lucian, Menippean Satires, and 'early sci-fi' to Lewis Carrol and some of the wilder anime stuff.
This would not be a complete list of subgenres by any means.
If I were to define something as low fantasy I suppose it would be a setting where the fantastic intrudes on the real in a very low key way. Like Washington Irving's Legend of Sleepy Hollow.
Then there would be Swords and Sorcery which would be the sort of proto or near earths of Conan and Edgar Rice Burroughs.
High Fantasy would be the mideaval good vs. evil metaphysical fight in a complete world. Narnia and Middle Earth.
Epic Fantasy would be the hugely heroic mythical stuff. Elric and Illiad.
Wild Fantasy would cover the range from Lucian, Menippean Satires, and 'early sci-fi' to Lewis Carrol and some of the wilder anime stuff.
This would not be a complete list of subgenres by any means.
High Fantasy for me is about the feel of the setting (wondrous), not the power level of the characters.
High Fantasy - Tolkien, Donaldson (Thomas Covenant), Le Guin (Earthsea), Cheryh (Chronicles of Morgaine), CS Lewis (Narnia)
Low Fantasy (sword & sorcery) - Conan, Leiber (Lankhmar), Thieves' World, Wolfe (Book of the New Sun).
Moorcock (Corum, Elric, Hawkmoon) does a sort of high fantasy sword & sorcery, in feel though he's closer to Leiber than to Tolkien or Donaldson.
Generally, High Fantasy has clear-cut good & evil and a hierarchical universe where the champions of good strive to maintain the status quo vs the forces of Change & Entropy - it favours Law, in D&D alignment terms. The strongest influence on high fantasy is Judaeo-Christian morality and dualist mythologies (eg Norse, Persian). Examples go back a long way, most tellings of Arthurian myth fit here.
Low fantasy tends to have fuzzy good & evil, and the protagonists are often agents of Change - it is Chaotic, in D&D alignment terms. Its universe is often democratic and individualist. It seems to be largely of 20th century post-WW1 origin. The strongest influencies would seem to be Enlightenment, Rationalist (or nihilist) and atheist philosophies, and pagan non-dualist mythologies (eg Greek).
Standard D&D and its derivatives (eg Diablo CRPG) mix the genres and is better classed as 'power fantasy' than either high or low.
High Fantasy - Tolkien, Donaldson (Thomas Covenant), Le Guin (Earthsea), Cheryh (Chronicles of Morgaine), CS Lewis (Narnia)
Low Fantasy (sword & sorcery) - Conan, Leiber (Lankhmar), Thieves' World, Wolfe (Book of the New Sun).
Moorcock (Corum, Elric, Hawkmoon) does a sort of high fantasy sword & sorcery, in feel though he's closer to Leiber than to Tolkien or Donaldson.
Generally, High Fantasy has clear-cut good & evil and a hierarchical universe where the champions of good strive to maintain the status quo vs the forces of Change & Entropy - it favours Law, in D&D alignment terms. The strongest influence on high fantasy is Judaeo-Christian morality and dualist mythologies (eg Norse, Persian). Examples go back a long way, most tellings of Arthurian myth fit here.
Low fantasy tends to have fuzzy good & evil, and the protagonists are often agents of Change - it is Chaotic, in D&D alignment terms. Its universe is often democratic and individualist. It seems to be largely of 20th century post-WW1 origin. The strongest influencies would seem to be Enlightenment, Rationalist (or nihilist) and atheist philosophies, and pagan non-dualist mythologies (eg Greek).
Standard D&D and its derivatives (eg Diablo CRPG) mix the genres and is better classed as 'power fantasy' than either high or low.
I would put Pat Mills' Slaine as 'Celtic high fantasy' - it has a non-Christian value system (unlike Tolkien, Donaldson or CS Lewis) but does have a hierarchical (non-democratic) universe, the protagonist does not act for himself, he champions the Good (the Goddess) vs Evil (her enemies) to restore the Old Order that existed prior to being Corrupted.
Looking at modern and sf fantasy, Star Wars is classic High Fantasy, something like Firefly is Low Fantasy, but Buffy the Vampire Slayer is the best example of modern 'low fantasy' I can think of, being highly anti-hierarchical, concerned with Change rather than Order, democratic and individualist in tone, hostile to authority.
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