D&D 5E (2024) High Level 5.5E: Building Encounter Chains

[tetrasodium]

4 encounters works reasonably well in 5.5 depending on how strong they are.

Thats around 12 rounds.

5 and players would be running low on stuff unless they're conservative with resources.

I'm guessing most here haven't actually used the rules or DM a game. Hell I'm not even sure nost here have actually played 5.5 vs interjecting their own assumptions and previous editions stuff onto it.

I've been running encounters RAW for over a year.

Uhh...

Makes the problem worse everyone will want to nova.

Short rest classes can't nova without cost and demand a smoke break to repeat it next encounter like they are playing half minute hero instead of d&d if short rests are simply removed. Long rest classes have a higher bar to rest that doesn't require a half minute hero tuned doom clock and are not designed to encourage a nova loop.

5MWD is a player problem and newer players are doing it more. 4E would have the same problem everyone would want to blow their dailies and rest.

A problem players are encouraged encouraged to engage in by short rest class design that evades reasonable pressure from the gm. That makes it a design problem

The solution is on the DM or you would have to rewrite D&D entirely removing dailies and putting everyone on at will and encounter. Then you don't have D&D.

There isn't much "rewriting" to simply remove short rests. Do warlock and monk lose the ability to nova loop? Yes good, they still have significant at will abilities like hexed agonizing repelling Eldritch blast firing 3 bolts at level 15 and the monk can use magical versions of monk weapons on top of its various at will abilities. There is no step two rewrite needed in simply removing short rests.

New encounter rules actually work as long as you don't 5MWD. My groups don't do that as I run living world/consequences if they do. Rarely a hard time limit (rescue the princess by midnight). Time taken IRL is approaching 4E if you do though (30-60 minute fights tier 2 maybe 3).

5.5 is more reliant on battlemats so more time taken to set up or draw it in. If you rush you might be able to squeeze in 3 or 4 fights a session but you won't be doing much else.

Its very grindy later on though at 12th level I had 10 encounters just to see what happens low/medium/high in equal numbers.

Its a question of real life time vs DM patience and how players tend to play.

Kinda like 4E grind with 3.5 rocket tag later on IMHO. Heres some big bad with +10 or 15 initiative here comes a 20d6 AoE I can't counter. Kinda balances out the classes. Squashies get nuked.

Obviously by your own admission in that bolded bit, they very much do not work "reasonably well".

 

[kigmatzomat]

My 5E 2024 (5.5E) campaign is reaching its climax. The PCs are currently 15th level, and depending on whether they decide to tie up some loose ends, or decide to rush the BBEG, they will either be 15th or 17th level for the "final battle". A detail that may be important: there is no cleric in the party.

tl;dr: Help me figure out what a 15th level 5.5E encounter chain to stress resources looks like. Thanks!

So without any strong context we can't suggest specific numbers as it comes down to the creature types that make sense.

But look at it from the other side. If a bbeg of some kind wants to ablate attackers, what should they do?

1. A noisy outer perimeter with good perception. Enough of them spread out sufficiently that a single quiet spell can't take them all out. They aren't expected to even be speed bumps but they have horns, gongs, etc to summon reinforcement. Maybe they drop a portcullis, which makes a huge racket. They should have a chance of alerting the defenders prior to invaders of the most likely kind hitting the perimeter. "Of the most likely kind" could be goblins, the group of paladins that keep driving out the bbeg, whatever. Odds are it isnt the PCs. (2% of xp budget)
I would have this be a LOT of cr 1/8 human/goblin/whatever guards. Scatter them across the map and have them yell loudly and run away towards some kind of reinforcement as their action. Make them noisy mosquitos.

2. A couple of groups of middle-tier reinforcements that come from different paths. These should have a chance to stop whatever counts as "most likely kind of invaders." Again, that's probably not the PCs. They have the advantage of known terrain and some kind of tactic, which could be as simple as "trolls attack from west, orks attack from east and goblins fire arrows from the rooftops to the north" (8% of xp budget)

3. The reserves. These are a couple of heavy hitters that are expected to finish off whatever the reinforcements are chewing on. Maybe a smaller giant in plate mail, spellcaster, and a sneaky-sniper type. (20% of xp total)

4.the underboss and their personal guard. The person the bbeg will be mad at. (20% of xp total) definitely have at least one spell caster who tosses low level irritation spells (heat metal, entangle, faeirie fire, fog cloud, etc) the stuff that wears away at PCs, makes them easier to hit or slow to move.

5. The bbeg and their guards/minions. (50% of xp total)

 

[Zardnaar]

Uhh...

Short rest classes can't nova without cost and demand a smoke break to repeat it next encounter like they are playing half minute hero instead of d&d if short rests are simply removed. Long rest classes have a higher bar to rest that doesn't require a half minute hero tuned doom clock and are not designed to encourage a nova loop.

A problem players are encouraged encouraged to engage in by short rest class design that evades reasonable pressure from the gm. That makes it a design problem

There isn't much "rewriting" to simply remove short rests. Do warlock and monk lose the ability to nova loop? Yes good, they still have significant at will abilities like hexed agonizing repelling Eldritch blast firing 3 bolts at level 15 and the monk can use magical versions of monk weapons on top of its various at will abilities. There is no step two rewrite needed in simply removing short rests.

Obviously by your own admission in that bolded bit, they very much do not work "reasonably well".

Youre assuming everyone 5MWD.

Theres big downsides if you do. Time to reinforce e and fortify comes to mind.

5.5 also added more short rest abilities to other classes and buyback abilities allowing short rest to nova eg monk.

Prayer of healing also grants short rest.

Since I actively play I've noticed thise stuff.
Long rest everyone nova problem becomes worse assuming people are 5MWD.

Removing daily abilities woukd also work but thats not D&D problem/bridge to far.

 

[tetrasodium]

@Zardnaar

Youre assuming everyone 5MWD.

I don't even know what point you are trying to make, you seem to be assuming I'm with you on something so far unsaid that is not as universal as you might think. In my experience the short rest classes get chosen by players who wlook at the mechanics and say "wow cool" at the way they ooze 5mwd loop encouragement.

Players with long rest classes recognize the embarrassment of riches that 5mwd long resting would be and hold back without the belief that they are expected to blow their wadvlooping Nova or bust then rest "because it's how my class was designed". It should be pretty obvious that by suggesting removal of short rests as step 1 & done that I view the nova loop problem one that is almost entirely on the shoulders of short rest class design.

Theres big downsides if you do. Time to reinforce e and fortify comes to mind.

There is almost zero downside to sr class 5mwd nova looping because short rests are not on a scale that mapa well to adventuring days unless the dungeon or whatever is an active battlefield with unrealistic levels of traffic for a dungeon.

5.5 also added more short rest abilities to other classes and buyback abilities allowing short rest to nova eg monk.

Irrelivant

Prayer of healing also grants short rest.

If short rests are removed as suggested they wouldn't exist to be granted

Since I actively play I've noticed thise stuff.
Long rest everyone nova problem becomes worse assuming people are 5MWD.

Removing daily abilities woukd also work but thats not D&D problem/bridge to far.

See above.

 

[Zardnaar]

@Zardnaar


I don't even know what point you are trying to make, you seem to be assuming I'm with you on something so far unsaid that is not as universal as you might think. In my experience the short rest classes get chosen by players who wlook at the mechanics and say "wow cool" at the way they ooze 5mwd loop encouragement.

Players with long rest classes recognize the embarrassment of riches that 5mwd long resting would be and hold back without the belief that they are expected to blow their wadvlooping Nova or bust then rest "because it's how my class was designed". It should be pretty obvious that by suggesting removal of short rests as step 1 & done that I view the nova loop problem one that is almost entirely on the shoulders of short rest class design.


There is almost zero downside to sr class 5mwd nova looping because short rests are not on a scale that mapa well to adventuring days unless the dungeon or whatever is an active battlefield with unrealistic levels of traffic for a dungeon.

Irrelivant

If short rests are removed as suggested they wouldn't exist to be granted

See above.

Its not irrelevant it gives long rest classes incentive to take short rests yes?

Its not even clrar of 5MWD is an actual issue.
WotC biggest screw up was i. 3.0 when they started making assumptions about how many combats a day was supposed to have.

5MWD if its even an actual issue is a playstyle or DM issue. If people prefer it or have fun doing it so be it. Its not even an issue.

ENworlds essentially incapable of understanding that not everyone plays the same. Inexperienced DM clear section 1, 2, 3 etc static world is probably a bigger issue.

Its not an issue in my games because there's consequences if you try and abuse the 5MWD. It happens sometimes by design, sometimes because they dont have a choice (encounter goes badly).

Encounter building and pacing is an art form. Everyone's different and what works in my games won't in yours. I get the impression most here haven't actually run 5.5 and only a few are actively playing.

What 5.5 has done correctly is let the individual DM control the pacing of the game and make no assumptions around number of encounters or having to grind through resources at a set pace.

If newbies like 5MWD so be it. OPs asking how to avoid it. Think I'm the only one here who has run the encounters RAW.

Page 116 dmg iirc.

 

[tetrasodium]

Its not irrelevant it gives long rest classes incentive to take short rests yes?

Did you mix up the discussion you were responding to? That is irrelivant to the problem of short rest classes getting back all resources to fuel a nova loop. You literally quoted this earlier and are not even responding to what is written in the posts you quote

Yes, daily resources are the problem it solves. By having every PC on the same adventuring day cycle it removes a lot of problems that are created by bad scaling of short rest classes and returns the ability to wear down party resources without a couple PCs being able to do things like drop 15 points of ki or 3x 5th level slots each fight... With 6-8 expected combats for the day the class design puts L15 "daily resources" at 195-135 points of ki & 18-24 5th level spell slots.

That is why short rest classes are designed to encourage 5mwd nova loops from late tier2 and up. Long rest classes having "incentive" to take a short rest is so irrelivant that it may as well be on different planet