D&D 5E (2024) High Level 5.5E: Building Encounter Chains

[tetrasodium]

4 encounters works reasonably well in 5.5 depending on how strong they are.

Thats around 12 rounds.

5 and players would be running low on stuff unless they're conservative with resources.

I'm guessing most here haven't actually used the rules or DM a game. Hell I'm not even sure nost here have actually played 5.5 vs interjecting their own assumptions and previous editions stuff onto it.

I've been running encounters RAW for over a year.

Uhh...

Makes the problem worse everyone will want to nova.

Short rest classes can't nova without cost and demand a smoke break to repeat it next encounter like they are playing half minute hero instead of d&d if short rests are simply removed. Long rest classes have a higher bar to rest that doesn't require a half minute hero tuned doom clock and are not designed to encourage a nova loop.

5MWD is a player problem and newer players are doing it more. 4E would have the same problem everyone would want to blow their dailies and rest.

A problem players are encouraged encouraged to engage in by short rest class design that evades reasonable pressure from the gm. That makes it a design problem

The solution is on the DM or you would have to rewrite D&D entirely removing dailies and putting everyone on at will and encounter. Then you don't have D&D.

There isn't much "rewriting" to simply remove short rests. Do warlock and monk lose the ability to nova loop? Yes good, they still have significant at will abilities like hexed agonizing repelling Eldritch blast firing 3 bolts at level 15 and the monk can use magical versions of monk weapons on top of its various at will abilities. There is no step two rewrite needed in simply removing short rests.

New encounter rules actually work as long as you don't 5MWD. My groups don't do that as I run living world/consequences if they do. Rarely a hard time limit (rescue the princess by midnight). Time taken IRL is approaching 4E if you do though (30-60 minute fights tier 2 maybe 3).

5.5 is more reliant on battlemats so more time taken to set up or draw it in. If you rush you might be able to squeeze in 3 or 4 fights a session but you won't be doing much else.

Its very grindy later on though at 12th level I had 10 encounters just to see what happens low/medium/high in equal numbers.

Its a question of real life time vs DM patience and how players tend to play.

Kinda like 4E grind with 3.5 rocket tag later on IMHO. Heres some big bad with +10 or 15 initiative here comes a 20d6 AoE I can't counter. Kinda balances out the classes. Squashies get nuked.

Obviously by your own admission in that bolded bit, they very much do not work "reasonably well".

 

[kigmatzomat]

My 5E 2024 (5.5E) campaign is reaching its climax. The PCs are currently 15th level, and depending on whether they decide to tie up some loose ends, or decide to rush the BBEG, they will either be 15th or 17th level for the "final battle". A detail that may be important: there is no cleric in the party.

tl;dr: Help me figure out what a 15th level 5.5E encounter chain to stress resources looks like. Thanks!

So without any strong context we can't suggest specific numbers as it comes down to the creature types that make sense.

But look at it from the other side. If a bbeg of some kind wants to ablate attackers, what should they do?

1. A noisy outer perimeter with good perception. Enough of them spread out sufficiently that a single quiet spell can't take them all out. They aren't expected to even be speed bumps but they have horns, gongs, etc to summon reinforcement. Maybe they drop a portcullis, which makes a huge racket. They should have a chance of alerting the defenders prior to invaders of the most likely kind hitting the perimeter. "Of the most likely kind" could be goblins, the group of paladins that keep driving out the bbeg, whatever. Odds are it isnt the PCs. (2% of xp budget)
I would have this be a LOT of cr 1/8 human/goblin/whatever guards. Scatter them across the map and have them yell loudly and run away towards some kind of reinforcement as their action. Make them noisy mosquitos.

2. A couple of groups of middle-tier reinforcements that come from different paths. These should have a chance to stop whatever counts as "most likely kind of invaders." Again, that's probably not the PCs. They have the advantage of known terrain and some kind of tactic, which could be as simple as "trolls attack from west, orks attack from east and goblins fire arrows from the rooftops to the north" (8% of xp budget)

3. The reserves. These are a couple of heavy hitters that are expected to finish off whatever the reinforcements are chewing on. Maybe a smaller giant in plate mail, spellcaster, and a sneaky-sniper type. (20% of xp total)

4.the underboss and their personal guard. The person the bbeg will be mad at. (20% of xp total) definitely have at least one spell caster who tosses low level irritation spells (heat metal, entangle, faeirie fire, fog cloud, etc) the stuff that wears away at PCs, makes them easier to hit or slow to move.

5. The bbeg and their guards/minions. (50% of xp total)

 

[Zardnaar]

Uhh...

Short rest classes can't nova without cost and demand a smoke break to repeat it next encounter like they are playing half minute hero instead of d&d if short rests are simply removed. Long rest classes have a higher bar to rest that doesn't require a half minute hero tuned doom clock and are not designed to encourage a nova loop.

A problem players are encouraged encouraged to engage in by short rest class design that evades reasonable pressure from the gm. That makes it a design problem

There isn't much "rewriting" to simply remove short rests. Do warlock and monk lose the ability to nova loop? Yes good, they still have significant at will abilities like hexed agonizing repelling Eldritch blast firing 3 bolts at level 15 and the monk can use magical versions of monk weapons on top of its various at will abilities. There is no step two rewrite needed in simply removing short rests.

Obviously by your own admission in that bolded bit, they very much do not work "reasonably well".

Youre assuming everyone 5MWD.

Theres big downsides if you do. Time to reinforce e and fortify comes to mind.

5.5 also added more short rest abilities to other classes and buyback abilities allowing short rest to nova eg monk.

Prayer of healing also grants short rest.

Since I actively play I've noticed thise stuff.
Long rest everyone nova problem becomes worse assuming people are 5MWD.

Removing daily abilities woukd also work but thats not D&D problem/bridge to far.

 

[tetrasodium]

@Zardnaar

Youre assuming everyone 5MWD.

I don't even know what point you are trying to make, you seem to be assuming I'm with you on something so far unsaid that is not as universal as you might think. In my experience the short rest classes get chosen by players who wlook at the mechanics and say "wow cool" at the way they ooze 5mwd loop encouragement.

Players with long rest classes recognize the embarrassment of riches that 5mwd long resting would be and hold back without the belief that they are expected to blow their wadvlooping Nova or bust then rest "because it's how my class was designed". It should be pretty obvious that by suggesting removal of short rests as step 1 & done that I view the nova loop problem one that is almost entirely on the shoulders of short rest class design.

Theres big downsides if you do. Time to reinforce e and fortify comes to mind.

There is almost zero downside to sr class 5mwd nova looping because short rests are not on a scale that mapa well to adventuring days unless the dungeon or whatever is an active battlefield with unrealistic levels of traffic for a dungeon.

5.5 also added more short rest abilities to other classes and buyback abilities allowing short rest to nova eg monk.

Irrelivant

Prayer of healing also grants short rest.

If short rests are removed as suggested they wouldn't exist to be granted

Since I actively play I've noticed thise stuff.
Long rest everyone nova problem becomes worse assuming people are 5MWD.

Removing daily abilities woukd also work but thats not D&D problem/bridge to far.

See above.

 

[Zardnaar]

@Zardnaar


I don't even know what point you are trying to make, you seem to be assuming I'm with you on something so far unsaid that is not as universal as you might think. In my experience the short rest classes get chosen by players who wlook at the mechanics and say "wow cool" at the way they ooze 5mwd loop encouragement.

Players with long rest classes recognize the embarrassment of riches that 5mwd long resting would be and hold back without the belief that they are expected to blow their wadvlooping Nova or bust then rest "because it's how my class was designed". It should be pretty obvious that by suggesting removal of short rests as step 1 & done that I view the nova loop problem one that is almost entirely on the shoulders of short rest class design.


There is almost zero downside to sr class 5mwd nova looping because short rests are not on a scale that mapa well to adventuring days unless the dungeon or whatever is an active battlefield with unrealistic levels of traffic for a dungeon.

Irrelivant

If short rests are removed as suggested they wouldn't exist to be granted

See above.

Its not irrelevant it gives long rest classes incentive to take short rests yes?

Its not even clrar of 5MWD is an actual issue.
WotC biggest screw up was i. 3.0 when they started making assumptions about how many combats a day was supposed to have.

5MWD if its even an actual issue is a playstyle or DM issue. If people prefer it or have fun doing it so be it. Its not even an issue.

ENworlds essentially incapable of understanding that not everyone plays the same. Inexperienced DM clear section 1, 2, 3 etc static world is probably a bigger issue.

Its not an issue in my games because there's consequences if you try and abuse the 5MWD. It happens sometimes by design, sometimes because they dont have a choice (encounter goes badly).

Encounter building and pacing is an art form. Everyone's different and what works in my games won't in yours. I get the impression most here haven't actually run 5.5 and only a few are actively playing.

What 5.5 has done correctly is let the individual DM control the pacing of the game and make no assumptions around number of encounters or having to grind through resources at a set pace.

If newbies like 5MWD so be it. OPs asking how to avoid it. Think I'm the only one here who has run the encounters RAW.

Page 116 dmg iirc.

 

[tetrasodium]

Its not irrelevant it gives long rest classes incentive to take short rests yes?

Did you mix up the discussion you were responding to? That is irrelivant to the problem of short rest classes getting back all resources to fuel a nova loop. You literally quoted this earlier and are not even responding to what is written in the posts you quote

Yes, daily resources are the problem it solves. By having every PC on the same adventuring day cycle it removes a lot of problems that are created by bad scaling of short rest classes and returns the ability to wear down party resources without a couple PCs being able to do things like drop 15 points of ki or 3x 5th level slots each fight... With 6-8 expected combats for the day the class design puts L15 "daily resources" at 195-135 points of ki & 18-24 5th level spell slots.

That is why short rest classes are designed to encourage 5mwd nova loops from late tier2 and up. Long rest classes having "incentive" to take a short rest is so irrelivant that it may as well be on different planet

 

[Zardnaar]

Did you mix up the discussion you were responding to? That is irrelivant to the problem of short rest classes getting back all resources to fuel a nova loop. You literally quoted this earlier and are not even responding to what is written in the posts you quote


That is why short rest classes are designed to encourage 5mwd nova loops from late tier2 and up. Long rest classes having "incentive" to take a short rest is so irrelivant that it may as well be on different planet

Its still a playstyle/DM issue on static worlds.

Hit the beach use up all grenades. Go rest for 8 hours or keep going.

Its an easy fix dont run static worlds. Theres in game consequences for 5MWD.

 

[tetrasodium]

Its still a playstyle/DM issue on static worlds.

Hit the beach use up all grenades. Go rest for 8 hours or keep going.

Its an easy fix dont run static worlds. Theres in game consequences for 5MWD.

You are talking about something entirely different, why do you keep quoting me and responding as if you have st any point even acknowledged that you understood that. Short rest nova loops with short rest classes don't need to "go " anywhere to rest and the encounter mechanics as well as monsters themselves are totally incapable of handling that level of output from late tier 2 up. Not is it a static vrs dynamic world issue, short rests are just too low of a bar and attrition won't matter for a few sessions worth of combat because PCs have too many solid at wills and are tuned for having resources 6-8 encounters rather than the old 2-ish to 4-ish encounters.Level 15 is well into tier 3 & I believe nearly tier 4.

Also I literally addressed why it is not the "same" earlier and you quoted that too.

@Zardnaar


I don't even know what point you are trying to make, you seem to be assuming I'm with you on something so far unsaid that is not as universal as you might think. In my experience the short rest classes get chosen by players who wlook at the mechanics and say "wow cool" at the way they ooze 5mwd loop encouragement.

Players with long rest classes recognize the embarrassment of riches that 5mwd long resting would be and hold back without the belief that they are expected to blow their wad looping Nova or bust then rest "because it's how my class was designed". It should be pretty obvious that by suggesting removal of short rests as step 1 & done that I view the nova loop problem one that is almost entirely on the shoulders of short rest class design.


There is almost zero downside to sr class 5mwd nova looping because short rests are not on a scale that maps well to adventuring days unless the dungeon or whatever is an active battlefield with unrealistic levels of traffic for a dungeon.

Irrelivant

If short rests are removed as suggested they wouldn't exist to be granted

See above.

You've shown the depths of denial towards even accepting that short rest class nova loops ais unique problem and why it's over a decade past the point where it should have been addressed

Removing short rests and forcing players to adapt to a single adventuring day track rather than some PCs being able to opt out to choose an adventuring encounter track solves the problem

 

[BenjaminPey]

Think I'm the only one here who has run the encounters RAW.

Sorry, but that is false and frankly rude.

 

[Zardnaar]

You are talking about something entirely different, why do you keep quoting me and responding as if you have st any point even acknowledged that you understood that. Short rest nova loops with short rest classes don't need to "go " anywhere to rest and the encounter mechanics as well as monsters themselves are totally incapable of handling that level of output from late tier 2 up. Not is it a static vrs dynamic world issue, short rests are just too low of a bar and attrition won't matter for a few sessions worth of combat because PCs have too many solid at wills and are tuned for having resources 6-8 encounters rather than the old 2-ish to 4-ish encounters.Level 15 is well into tier 3 & I believe nearly tier 4.

Also I literally addressed why it is not the "same" earlier and you quoted that too.

You've shown the depths of denial towards even accepting that short rest class nova loops ais unique problem and why it's over a decade past the point where it should have been addressed

Removing short rests and forcing players to adapt to a single adventuring day track rather than some PCs being able to opt out to choose an adventuring encounter track solves the problem

Not really theres 3 things you can do. You solution isn't the one true path.

1. Give every class like dailies like you suggest.

2. Remove dailies from all classes. Everything i at will or at will and encounter.

Both require a rewrite.

3. Playstyle/DM issue. Theres done very good in gane reasons not to 5MWD. Reinforcement snd fortifying things for starters. Or flee and take loot. Change the playstyle.

Your solution isnt the only one.

Thats assuming the 5MWD is actually an issue. I suspect a lot of newbies are doing this due to inexperienced DMs, video game influence and static adventure design.

If peopke are having fun ping it so be it. Its not how I do it but I"m not claiming my ways the one true way either.

My way does fix it though. PCs sod off for 8 hours any serving creatures with intelligence of 10 or higher could just flee taking loo with them. Read out what they fled with and PCs missed.

Or the monsters attack at night. If they have dispel magic available leomunds secure bunker wont save them.

Ir they reinforce and make everything tougher for the PCs. Relocate the entire dungeon to the first few rooms and hit them hard.

Basic tactics and strategy. A 5MWD if is a problem is playstyke issue. Think about D-Day gove the Germans 8+ hours to respond for free. Happened at ANZAC Galipoli landing as well. That was a two hour head start iirc on one of the beaches. Foes took high ground and dug in.

If your players are taking the piss abusing 5MWD do it back.

Thats the counter to it its basically players metagaming and DMs who cant figure it out or are gappy to roll with it. May not be an issue and easily countered.

More to the point it's exactly what the OP is asking. Consequences in game is the counter.
. 3 or 4 deadly encounters RAW the players will start struggling depending on level.

2 low encounters technically count as a high its more likec3 as youre crushing them piecemeal.

Mediums a bit harder. Theyre about 2-1 or 1.5-1 medium/high.

Thats the counter to 5MWD and 3-4 high encounters depending on terrain. If you keep hitting them they'll need to short rest to heal with hit dice.

Another way is hit them harder over and over. Once they're more or less depleted throw a medium encounter at them. If they're really depleted throw an low encounter at them. How many to reach that point depends on level, composition, monsters used etc. Its somewhere between 3 and 10 encounters.

WotC won't be rewriting anything soon. So my ways the way forward by default or play something else. OP specifically asked about changing the playstyle. They described 5MWD (1 set piece encounter)

Think I was the first and only one to answer OP using what the actual rules say. Think I'm the only one here who's actually used said rules from the sounds of it.

So I answered the question you bitch and moaned, didn't help and claimed one true way lol. Typical ENworld tbh its fairly useless here lately. OP up voted my suggestion.

Anything practical to add or just declare yourself right?