High-level "averages" for AC, defenses, etc

[Cam Banks]

I'm currently running a high-level game, with the party average level being 16th. One thing I'm wondering about, from those who've run high-level games for a while now, is what the expected AC, resistances, defenses, and so forth are for the heroes. Should the fighters all be in their 30's for AC? Do people find the "average wealth by party level" to be off or too generous?

As an example, I suggested to people who were making up new characters that they go by the average wealth chart for PCs, but knocked it down a couple of levels (to the 14th level line) and said no item could cost more than half of that amount, and even with that the stuff they're able to legitimately possess is truly amazing. Any thoughts on this?

All advice is appreciated!

Cheers,
Cam

 

[NimrodvanHall]

armor class, to hit and damage fluctuate quite alot at those levels, depending on whether the characters buffed or not.

i always hold strict to the reccomended character wealth, i would not lower it unless you only want your PC's to fight NPC's unles the PC's are rather tweaked out they will not be abled to hold their own against monsters of their ECL

 

[Cam Banks]

armor class, to hit and damage fluctuate quite alot at those levels, depending on whether the characters buffed or not.

i always hold strict to the reccomended character wealth, i would not lower it unless you only want your PC's to fight NPC's unles the PC's are rather tweaked out they will not be abled to hold their own against monsters of their ECL

They've been doing quite well even without the appropriate gear, believe it or not. I have 6 players, and sometimes their ability to gang up on a single powerful opponent does him in. But, obviously, I'm working on fixing that, too.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[VirgilCaine]

They've been doing quite well even without the appropriate gear, believe it or not. I have 6 players, and sometimes their ability to gang up on a single powerful opponent does him in. But, obviously, I'm working on fixing that, too.

Cheers,
Cam

Well if they are fighting single opponents, they should be winning pretty easily at that level, period, I guess. Even without the right gear.

 

[Stalker0]

I general I've noticed, especially with 5 or more players....that the only way a single opponent is going to challenge them is if he is hoss or I've seriously softened them up before hand.

Just 4 or more opponents a few CR's lower and see how they do.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Well, I can't say whether this is higher-than-average or not, but my 17th level party had the following:
Attacks: For the fighters, they typical had complete attack bonuses in the mid-to-high 20's. AC's of 30-35 weren't much of a challenge. I had one fighter who could actually hit AC's of 45-50.

Damage: Most damage was in the 15-25 hp/atk range. Archers were the worst.

Saves: Good saves were in the 20's, with the casters often in the high 20's. Bad saves were in the 'teens.

SR: There's a little spell (I forget were it's from) that gives PCs SR 12+Caster level. Think long and hard about allowing it in. Ditto for Assay Resistance. The two together can dramatically skew the results in the PCs favor.

ACs: From the low-to-mid 30's (for the light armor PCs), to the high 30's to low 40's for the tanks.

 

[Thanee]

A decent fighter (tank) should have an AC in the mid-thirties or even up to fourty.
Saves should range from about the low teens to the mid-twenties.

The problem with the wealth level and creating higher level PCs is, that you can set everything up perfectly. If you play the character from low to high level, the items usually will not be so perfectly matched.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Bill Muench]

FYI, I'm basing the following numbers on two of my characters. One is a Clr6/Radiant Servant8/Contemplative3 of Pelor with the standard 4 domains (17th-level total). The other is a Bbn1/Ftr6/Ex-Mnk2/Dervish6 (15th-level total).

Attacks: The cleric can get to the mid 40s to hit, with 5 attacks a round, without any help. The dervish can get to the mid 30s with some buffing help.

Damage: The cleric does about 30 points a hit without any short-term buffs. With them and power attack, he can do about 60-70 points a hit. The last combat he was in, he did about 300 points in 1 round against an advanced runic guardian. The dervish does about 30 points without any power attack, and up to ~60 with it. He also has a much better critical range (15+), so that factors into play a lot.

Saves: The cleric's lowest save is Reflex, at +15 IIRC. His Will is +31. His Fort is in the mid-20s, IIRC. That's before short-term buffs. The dervish's low is Will at +12, and his high is Fort at +19. Again, before any buffs. With buffs, his Will is in the mid-teens and his Fort and Ref are in the low- to mid-twenties.

AC: Maybe I'm just good at coming up with high ACs, but the lowest either of these guys is ever at is 31. The dervish's walking around AC is usually 41, and he can crank it up to about 60 by sacrificing offense. The cleric can get to the mid-60s or maybe 70, although he doesn't need to sacrifice offense (he doesn't use Expertise - he just has tons of armor, natural armor, etc. thanks to spells - I'm not actually sure how high he could get it these days... maybe I'll go figure that out).

Resistances: The dervish doesn't really have many other than Evasion and Close-Quarters Fighting, unless he's received buffs from his friends. The cleric is immune to just about everything most of the time (he's powerful to the point where he isn't all that fun to play anymore, so I'll be retiring him to NPC status at the end of the year).

Now, with these things in mind, here's where I see it: at 16th level, tanks should have standing ACs in the mid-30s. With help from their friends, they should be in the mid-40s* at least. Their attack bonuses should be about 30. Their lowest save should be at least a double digit. They should have some way of being resistant to energy or at least avoiding area-effect spells. I've heard a lot of people say that AC is irrelevant, since at high levels you're going to get hit regardless. That might be true of your opponent's first attack, but if you can avoid those iterative attacks, that's good.

(* mid-40s isn't all that hard to do at 16th: 10 base + 13 armor [+5 full plate] + 7 shield [+5 heavy shield] + 4 deflection [ring of prot or shield of faith] + 5 natural enh [barkskin] + 1 Dex gives AC 40, and that doesn't even include polymorph/alter self or a dozen other ways to get AC; the +5 armor and shield, btw, are from Magic Vestment + Divine Spell Power)

Anyways, just some random thoughts.