High Level Feats (especially) for Fighters

[Roman]

In the university wargamers club, where I game, virtually everybody considers arcane spellcasters to be grossly underpowered, by far the weakest classes, and hardly anybody wants to play them and if so than only for the sake of change and playing something different once in a while. This is in stark contrast to what I read on the messageboards here on EN World and on the WotC messageboards, where people seem to consider wizards/sorcerers to be the or at least one of the most powerful classes. The reason for this discrepancy seems to be that I have never seen any character in any game in our wargamers club reach level 10 or higher and such levels appear to be common in other games judging by comments on various messageboards. On these messageboards it seems that the class considered to be the weakest is the figher - considered one of the strongest classes (though not as powerful as the cleric) in my wargamers club.

Hence it seems that wizards and sorcerers are underpowered at lower levels and fighters are underpowered at higher levels. Now, I recall reading an interesting discussion somewhere which mentioned that the reason fighters are relatively less powerful (or interesting to play) at higher levels is the lack of good high level feats for fighers to take. So... to rectify this matter... what kinds of feats do you think would it be appropriate to create for fighters (well not only for fighters, but with fighters in mind) to have an option to take? Do you think it would be better to extend current feat chains, or to create new ones, or to do both?

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

I just published a PDF through Ronin Arts about that very thing (link in my sig).

It's a mix of approaches, with some new feats designed around enhancing specific warrior abilities (monk, barbarian, paladin, ranger), and an extension of existing feat chains.

Obviously, I like the idea of extending existing feat chains, as that allows a player to continue focusing his character along his chosen path. At high levels, I think it's appropriate to really open up the feat chains, and to let the granted benefits be really mighty - this encourage the sort of grandiose heroing that makes high level combat fun.

I got the idea from a previous discussion here, actually, and it seems to have been a good one: the book has been #2 on the sales chart for the last few days, and in the top 5 all month.

Patrick Y.

 

[Particle_Man]

An obvious one (well, two): Even Greater Weapon Focus (prereq: 16th fighter), Even Greater Weapon Specialization (prereq: 20th fighter), to give another +1 th, +2 DA, for a total of +3 th, +6 DA with that weapon.

Or (to borrow from another setting): Armor Tolerance: Ignore the dex limit on armor for AC purposes. This might help make AC useful again.

And in general: Improved Iron Will, Greater Iron Will, Perfect Iron Will (each iteration adding another +2 to that save). Ditto for the other two saves.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

What about some high-level abilities for fighters (only), similar to rogue abilities. This would offer some advantage to those who stick with the fighter class rather than taking PrC's. Maybe at levels 11, 13, 17, and 19. I wouldn't suggest adding yet more damage, but maybe have some defensive options and interesting alternatives:

"Sure strike" - take 10 on an attack roll 3/day
"Deflecting strike" - as Deflect Arrows feat, but usable with weapon in hand
"Parry" - use one or more of your swings in the attack or full attack action as an opposed attack roll to deflect any melee attack
"Armor mobility" - as Particle Man said, ignore Dex limits on armor (maybe cap this at increase Dex limit by 4 or 5 for each armor)
"Master's hands" - does not fumble (if fumble rules used), and +8 to avoid disarm/sunder

More options would be needed... maybe 8 altogether. Unfortunately, just as weapon spec was given to non-fighter classes, somebody will come along and steal any good fighter ability for a non-fighter class.

 

[ruemere]

The biggest weakness of a fighter is that the class is (at higher levels) dependent on equipment, goodwill of other players (healing and dispelling hostile magical effects) and luck (no save spells, anyone?).

The high level fighter feats, IMHO, should allow to get around these weaknesses at least in a limited degree. For example, by being able to temporarily empower mundane items, throw off or delay life threatening effects or somehow avoid no save situations.

It would not be easy to design such feats without upsetting the balance of the game, however it should be doable. Feat ideas follow:

Favor of Thanatos: gain armor class bonus or ignore a portion of damage resistance. Daily limit.

Favor of Hermes: transfer a portion of received damage or hostile maical effect to another. Daily limit.

Favor of Eris: the first creature to target your with hostile no-save action is affected by Confusion spell. Once per day.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[deleteaccount]

Usually IMC every character has spellcasting ability because it seems to be more fun to play a spellcaster. I agree with the public opinion that pure spellcasters are more powerful because of their 'one save or out of combat' spells, not because of their damage dealing spells.

IMO it seems that taking a prestige class for fighter types is the best choice. Base classes lack power and specialization. And special powers too, but it would be lame if every character could overcome his weaknesses. Characters are supposed to support each other.

 

[Li Shenron]

IMO Fighters are not underpowered, but definitely they become less interesting at higher levels. The reason is that every class gets feats, and the Fighter doesn't have any unique abilities besides GWF, WS and GWS. It is absolutely the most used class in multiclassing combinations, because a few bonus combat feats are very attractive, but it's rare to see a single-class fighter (unless you would otherwise have some xp penalties).

I'm not sure what could be the best to make it interesting at high levels without changing the class itself... You can just add more and more feats in the game, make them with lots of prerequisites (to make them almost unavailable to other classes) but if you don't make them quite powerful it's likely that a player would still prefer to go multiclassing to get new abilities easier.

Perhaps it would be best to introduce feats the prereqs of which is a straight Fighter level X. This is RARELY done by WotC (can't remember anything besides the 3 core GWF, WS and GWS) probably in the name of some sort of design style which says "make feats available to everyone in theory". But at the moment I think this would be the easiest way to help the Ftr be played up to 20th...

 

[Roman]

Particle_Man, true... the weapon specialization, weapon focus and save improving feat chains could be given more same-sized steps, but would that make a significant difference to high level fighters? It might, but I am not certain.

Brother MacLaren, I think yours is a wonderful idea. Adding relevant special abilities for fighters on every prime number level above 10 would also make the fighter class more flavourful and I must admit that the ideas you present are ppropriate to the class and are also interesting/creative which is something that a fighter at higher levels definitely needs.

Ruemere & edhel - I am not sure about a fighter being able to overcome his weaknesses so much - I think it is better to build on his strengths. It is true that a single save or die wizard spell (or a monstrous spell-like ability) can kill a high level (say above 10) fighter, but then again a single full attack by a fighter (or a melee monster) can kill a high level wizard or sorcerer... hence the fighter needs to physically protect the wizard and the wizard should protect the fighter with protection magic... team play. Perhaps you are right that there should be ways to reduce these vulnerabilities - but not too much. As to giving fighters magical abilities, I would be very loath to do that - I call it magic inflation - but interesting non-magical interesting combat-related abilities are another matter.

Li Shenron & Arcane Runes Press, it is my fault that I have combined two separate issues here - power level of high level fighters and how interesting they are to play. That said, I do think you hit the nail in the head when you said that every class gets feats, so fighters lack uniqueness in that they get (almost) nothing that other classess cannot get too, the only exceptions being Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization, which accounts why they might not be as interesting to play at higher levels. And if the feats approach to making high level fighters both more interesting and less 'underpowered' is taken than there is indeed the issue of other classess being able to get those abilities too. How did you solve this (Arcane Runes Press)? Do the 'high level' feats simply have many prerequisites or are they truly fighter only? Which is the better design approach to take? I would think that a balance would be desirable.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I just published a PDF through Ronin Arts about that very thing (link in my sig).

Purchased. Thanks for the link!

One quick question, though: How is Masterful Expertise supposed to work? In particular, what does "–10 on your attack roll and add 1 and _ times that number" mean? I presume this is a number that's left out....

 

[Christopher Lambert]

I just published a PDF through Ronin Arts about that very thing (link in my sig).

It's a mix of approaches, with some new feats designed around enhancing specific warrior abilities (monk, barbarian, paladin, ranger), and an extension of existing feat chains.

Obviously, I like the idea of extending existing feat chains, as that allows a player to continue focusing his character along his chosen path. At high levels, I think it's appropriate to really open up the feat chains, and to let the granted benefits be really mighty - this encourage the sort of grandiose heroing that makes high level combat fun.

I got the idea from a previous discussion here, actually, and it seems to have been a good one: the book has been #2 on the sales chart for the last few days, and in the top 5 all month.

Patrick Y.

Oh yeah! I put it on the "must buy" list. In fact, if I had $5 of PDFs I wanted to buy, I'd have bought it already.

So ... er ... what would it take to get you to publish one four or five times as long?