High Level Fighter Vs. High Level Barbarian

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The barbarian just has to grapple the fighter. Unless he his focussed and specialisized in unarmed combat (or with his spiked gauntlets/armor spikes), his main advantages are away, while the barbarian still benefits from his increased strength due to Rage. The only problem for the barbarian is that a succesful AOO will negate the grapple attempt - but since the fighters Touch AC will probably suck (Dex Bonus +1, +5 Deflection at 20th level?), he has several attempts...

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Even with DR and 3.5 Power Attack I don't think the barbarian caught up in direct comparison.

I don't know sometimes one trick is all it takes... Looking at the greater strength gains from the Barbarian in 3.5 the only feats I'd need as a Barbarian are Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple (he could get those by 3rd level). I'd get +4 just from the Improved Grapple Alone and the Strength bonuses I'd get at high levels would just make him a grappling machine. Once that Barbarian gets the Fighter in a Grapple, he owns him. In a straight up weapons duel I'd have to agree with you though the Damage Reduction would definitely help the Barbarian. At 19th level he'll ignore the first 5 points of damage that the fighter dishes out while the Fighter eats every point that the Barbarian hits him with. 5 points from every attack adds up. A 20th level fighter will attack 4 times per round. If he hits every time then that is 20 points of damage the Barbarian will ignore. The Barbarian will also get those 4 shots in but the Fighter will eat every point. You can't use medium or large weapons when being grappled and most weapons that you can't use would simply nick the barbarian after his damage reduction was taken into account. The better Hit Dice coupled with Damage reduction coupled with bonus hit points from the rage would let the Barbarian go the distance. I made a Half-Orc Barbarian with the 28 point non-standard buy system and he started at 1st level with a 18 Str. When he hits 20th level not only will he have a 23 Str when not enraged but when he does rage he'll have a 31 Str. Couple that with the Improved Grapple feat and that is +34 to his Grapple check at 20th level. I haven't seen too many Fighters take Improved Unarmed and Improved Grapple since typically they focus on Weapon Feats but we'll give the example Fighter an 18 Str to start with as well and put every stat increase into Str as well. He'd have a Str of 23 as well so that would give him +6 and then his BAB would raise his Grapple bonus up to +26. It may only be a 8 point difference but those 8 points can mean a lot. That extra strength does come in handy.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

You can't use medium or large weapons when being grappled and most weapons that you can't use would simply nick the barbarian after his damage reduction was taken into account.

Curse my english... I meant that most weapons that you can use (light weapons) would only nick the Barbarian.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

The barbarian just has to grapple the fighter. Unless he his focussed and specialisized in unarmed combat (or with his spiked gauntlets/armor spikes), his main advantages are away, while the barbarian still benefits from his increased strength due to Rage. The only problem for the barbarian is that a succesful AOO will negate the grapple attempt - but since the fighters Touch AC will probably suck (Dex Bonus +1, +5 Deflection at 20th level?), he has several attempts...

The Improved Grapple takes away the AOO. If he took that feat he could go right up and grab the Fighter with no problems.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I think under more normal circumstances, the fighter will win. Barbarians in their light/medium armor normally have a much lower AC than a fighter will

A Barbarian would have to be mighty stupid to sit there and trade blows with a Fighter. A decently intelligent Barbarian is going to grab make a Touch Attack and grapple the fighter. Armor Class doesn't amount to anything with a grapple. Oh yea, you forgot to figure in Damage Reduction too.

 

[Crothian]

But for arguments sake, lets say the fighter is indeed taking -15, but how would the Barb know that the fighter did this ? For all intents and purposes, the fighter simply missed. There is no indication that he substracted 15 from his BaB. That would be metagaming on the part of the DM, and if the player was the barb, he simply wouldn't be aware of it.

The barbarian would know because it's obvious when some fights defensively. THis isn't two people sitting across the table rolling dice, it is in theory an actual combat. One can tell if the opponent is using feats like expertise, power attack, etc.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

At 20th level, with feats from PHB and CW, a fighter can get two elven lightblades, and max out on two weapon feats (with the appropriate defense feats). That's 8 attacks per round for the fighter, crit 15+.

The fighter wins. The barbarian doesn't have enough feats to make such a build.

And I agree that if you want to make a contest, it's only fair to use the ones, straight from the DMG, but in this case, the barbarian will win, because the fighter isn't optimized (TWF).

I have to laugh to myself... nobody every thinks about grappling. Everybody goes high-tech but the Barbarian wins by going low-tech.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Yubut that gives him (with two weapon defense) a +9 to AC. Plus nine !

So what? A grapple is a TOUCH ATTACK!!! I don't care what your weapon defense is... AC 10 + Dex bonus is all that is going to help you and a 20th level Barbarian is going to hit that simply by not rolling a 1.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

When he hits 20th level not only will he have a 23 Str when not enraged but when he does rage he'll have a 31 Str. Couple that with the Improved Grapple feat and that is +34 to his Grapple check at 20th level.

Make that +35. <<bangs his head against the wall>> "Curse getting up at 4 AM!!!!!!"

 

[Crothian]

So what? A grapple is a TOUCH ATTACK!!! I don't care what your weapon defense is... AC 10 + Dex bonus is all that is going to help you and a 20th level Barbarian is going to hit that simply by not rolling a 1.

Deflection bonuses also count. Really, anything except armor, shield and natural armor bonuses. The Barbarian should still be able to hit him, but the AC might be a little higher.