[High level monsters and powers] What can Graz'zt actually do?

Don't forget all of us who play non-DnD games! I primarily play Shadowrun and the idea of the DM just making up arbitrary powers for creatures can easily seem to players like "cheating." It's an odd notion that the rules do *not* actually reflect the reality of the game world, but that the physics of the world are based around what will challenge the players.

Bad example - most of the critters in SR have arbitrary powers that the PCs can't have; and there's a goodly number of by-the-book unavailable-to-PCs powers kicking around.

I always found one of the strengths of SR was that NPCs didn't have to follow the same rules for PCs outside of combat (and even inside you were strongly advised to fudge it - see how SR3 and 4 treat NPC dice pools by default). NPCs for my games were a description and a certain (somewhat indeterminate) number of dice that I judged would give the PCs the level of threat I wanted.
 

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Bad example - most of the critters in SR have arbitrary powers that the PCs can't have; and there's a goodly number of by-the-book unavailable-to-PCs powers kicking around.
Well, monsters in 3E did have that, too. Just derived numbers were according to similar rule as PC. But monsters sure don't follow 25 or 32 point buy when creating their stats. ;)

I always found one of the strengths of SR was that NPCs didn't have to follow the same rules for PCs outside of combat (and even inside you were strongly advised to fudge it - see how SR3 and 4 treat NPC dice pools by default). NPCs for my games were a description and a certain (somewhat indeterminate) number of dice that I judged would give the PCs the level of threat I wanted.
Balancing SR is not exactly easy, I think, but knowing the dice pool ranges of the PCs will get you a long way. Now you just don't have to underestimate - or overestimate spells, equipment and numbers. ;)
 

Well, monsters in 3E did have that, too. Just derived numbers were according to similar rule as PC. But monsters sure don't follow 25 or 32 point buy when creating their stats. ;)


Balancing SR is not exactly easy, I think, but knowing the dice pool ranges of the PCs will get you a long way. Now you just don't have to underestimate - or overestimate spells, equipment and numbers. ;)

Well, the other strength of SR that I found was that given a GM screen, it was trivial to adjust the numbers of the opposition on the fly without anyone but me knowing. (there were some cases involving magic where the target # was the target's stat, and everyone knows what the damage code of a particular gun is) but when rolling, the number of dice could change from roll to roll legitimately. I used this as a safety net, I must admit.

But the goals of a game of SR for my group were not the same as the goals of the same players when playing D&D. They spent up to 3/4 of the session designing the plan. Up to 12 people (a number I wouldn't want to run D&D for) sitting around a conference table hammering out a plan that they would then see how long they could get to survive enemy contact, (Not very long, typically) and then whether their contingency plans were any good. The goal was to get in and out with nobody the wiser and no rounds expended.

In D&D they want to kill things and loot their stuff. There's plenty of RP, don't get me wrong; and I've run a couple of successful mysteries/investigations successfully. (In 3E they were more successful than the majority of my dungeon crawls, to be honest; due to the difficulty I had with the mechanics of that system).

To bring this back on track; in the only system that I've run recently, did the mechanical expressions of non-combat abilities matter, and that was 3E D&D. In SR, it didn't matter because the system was so loose and because of the way PCs interacted with the NPCs. 4e brings a lot of that to D&D IMHO without having to bend the rules; and shows you what the numbers should be at every level to avoid having to fudge. (Something SR didn't do as well as it could, but running 4-12 hr sessions with a large number of college-trained engineers all of whom have a paperback-a-day habit and like the genre as reading and movie material will teach you quick). 3E always seemed too constrained to me, with way too much prep time involved. It didn't help that once you leave college, your free time to game drops drastically, so I didn't have the time to prep. But I never had to prep for SR - I could take a briefcase, a Johnson, and an antagonist's name (15 minute prep tops) and spin a night's fun out of that without cracking a rulebook. I still haven't achieved that in D&D, and I doubt I ever will totally because D&D opponents are more than a collection of numbers interacting with known and generic values for gear. (I could come close if I wanted to run only PC-race antagonists using p42 DMG and the class templates, I suppose). But I don't need to know the rules for what Graz'zt can do out of combat - he can do anything that the plot calls for and his background allows, even if it involves the PCs. If he ties a rope around the PCs I don't roll his dice, I look up how well (more or less) he should tie up a PC on the table on p42. If I want a degree of randomness I'll roll a small die (d4 to d8) to adjust the value; and use that as the DC for the escape test. There should be multiple ways for a PC to succeed or fail to advance, but they need to advance to continue telling the story. Advancing the story can involve failing at a task

Call that gamey if you like, but I've always been more interested in telling a story than running the PCs through the maze of life.
 


Here's a perfect example of how to make a fight memorable.

Safer (Seraph) Sephiroth.

What do you remember? The fact he could use Shadow Flare, Flare, and a couple -aga spells? Stuff you had available on Materia?

No. That's not what you remember, what made that fight memorable.

What made it memorable was the O Fortuna-homage theme in the background, chanting latin, the epic music of the fight....


....And the fact he summoned the destruction of the entire solar system just to hurt you.

You don't remember the minor mundane stuff... you remember the epic and unique stuff, and -that- is what sold the Seraph Sephiroth fight to everyone.
The most interesting thing about this post is the blithely confident assumption that we all know what or who a "Safer (Seraph) Sephiroth" is, thus obviating the need for citation. :)

For those who don't know and were wondering, it's a bad guy from Final Fantasy XII. It's actually the final boss that many people never got around to facing.
 

For those who don't know and were wondering, it's a bad guy from Final Fantasy XII. It's actually the final boss that many people never got around to facing.
Well, second to final boss, but no one ever counts that last battle w/ old Sephi anyway (as its mostly scripted)...
 

The most interesting thing about this post is the blithely confident assumption that we all know what or who a "Safer (Seraph) Sephiroth" is, thus obviating the need for citation. :)

For those who don't know and were wondering, it's a bad guy from Final Fantasy XII. It's actually the final boss that many people never got around to facing.

If you played Final Fantasy XII long enough to have beaten it, you knew what Safer Sepheroth was. If you didn't, telling you it was from Final Fantasy XII would have made the example meaningless anyways.

Why Grazz't is cool: He can control two party members, use them to flank the other party members, and NO ONE ELSE CAN.

Who -cares- if he can meteor swarm, he can do something NO ONE ELSE CAN IN THE GAME.

That's why he's memorable. Grazz't+Fighter with good encounter powers=OH GOD THE PAIN!

EDIT: Disregard that, dazed creatures don't get IAs
 

To reply to the OP:

A lot of people in this thread (and others) have said that the "extended stat blocks" aren't necessary because you can just have the monsters "do" whatever it is you need them to "do" and not worry about it. I don't disagree with this.

However, this is never really mentioned - or implied, I think - anywhere in the core books. I think a lot of people are thinking like the good DMs they are, and they understand that just because a devil god doesn't have some specific "open a portal to another plane" power listed in his stat block, that doesn't mean he can't do it. But this is never really stated or said anywhere in any of the books for anyone who isn't already an experienced DM, which I think is a little troublesome. It also leads to the type of question you posed.

And frankly, one of the things I liked about the extended-stat system was that it did two handy things:
- it gave you cool ideas about what these monsters could or would do, and
- it gave them limits.
Maybe you don't need the first if you're very creative, but the second one was really a nice thing to have because it made these monster super-capable... but also fallible. If "the devil-king can open a portal to another plane" is something the DM just made up, then how does it work? How can you stop it? Sure, maybe the DM can just create an in-game reason or way to stop it as well, but really the biggest danger of all is how does that stop the DM from abusing the power to railroad the characters? Is it fair?

Having a set rule means that the characters can work to bend or break that rule - but at least the whole situation isn't just arbitrary. Half the fun of Castle Ravenloft in 3.5 was working with/around/against all the crazy vampire rules that took half a page to stat out. Now, vampires have a couple powers that do damage and that's really it. If you want those extra rules you can always add them, but then they're more arbitrary and possibly less fair.

Personally, I feel like 4.0 sort of forces you to become either a really good DM who comes up with lots of extra rules, or a really average DM who works only with what's written. I highly encourage you to be the former.
 

Well, first of all, villains have access to the same rituals players do as a default. DMG, p27.

Secondly, you seem to think that D&D is a competition between DMs and Players, where the DM must follow set rules in order for the players to have a shot at defeating him.

In reality, it is a collaboration between the players and the DM, where they tell a story together. The players are in charge of the protagonists, and the DM is in charge of the conflicts that give the story life. As a narrative tool, the entirety of what can and cannot be done cannot be contained within statblocks, as possibilities are literally endless.

Furthermore: Monsters are not rules-systems that players exploit for the victory. The game is called 'Dungeons and Dragons' and it is not called 'Lawyers and Loopholes.'

Which brings this up: What business does a player have with a monster's stat block anyways? Players should be keeping their nosy noses out of their antagonists' abilities and traits. That isn't their job. They're job is to quest and solve puzzles, not look at the cheatcodes for it. The players don't need the DMG to play, or the MM.
 

Holy &#%^@@! Where in the 9 Hells did that come from, Runestar?


Why, by all that is unholy, would you need to know that Asmodeus' "Use Rope" skill was +31? :lol::D:confused:

Well, if one of the PCs Polymorphed themselves into an Erinyes, and she and Asmo' were "gettin' down", and Asmodeus had a taste for the kinky, it might be good to know her Escape Artist check DC if it came up...
 

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