D&D 5E High Passive Perception

[iserith]

How do you guys handle players with really high passive perception? I have one that got the Observant feat and high Perception already, giving them 21 Passive Perception at level 1... How the hell do I deal with that!? They spot everything at all times...

Easy - every task is a trade-off.

While adventuring, the players choose ONE general task they are undertaking as they do their thing. That might include Keeping Watch (for monsters and traps), Drawing a Map, Foraging, Tracking, Navigating, Searching for Secret Doors, etc. When you attempt one of these tasks, you can't do another at the same time (unless you're a ranger in favored terrain). Because this is a task that is performed repeatedly, the DM can use a passive check to resolve the outcome, when that outcome is uncertain.

So if your Observant PC wants to focus on avoiding being surprised by monsters, then he or she must Keep Watch. That means no drawing of maps or foraging or finding secret doors or whatever other task that might reasonably distract from Keeping Watch. If instead the Observant PC wants to Search for Secret Doors in the dungeon, then that means if lurking monsters come calling, he or she is automatically surprised since the character is not Keeping Watch. (Again, assuming the character is not a ranger in favored terrain.)

Further, you have to be in the position to notice things. If the party is approaching a hidden trap, for example, the Observant PC can only have a chance of spotting it IF the PC is both Keeping Watch and in the front rank. This means you not only have a trade-off, but you have to put yourself at some risk, too, by being in the front of the party.

In all likelihood, this will still mean the Observant PC will notice all the things he or she is focusing on. But the character can't focus on everything. There's a meaningful choice for him or her to make here that exists in the context of the setting rather than just when building the character.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Remember that Disadvantage subtracts 5 from PP.

 

[cmad1977]

A player in my game has this. It's awesome.


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[Mistwell]

If it's dark, then even with darkvision they get a -5 to the check.

 

[hastur_nz]

By all means know the rules, but I'm constantly annoyed at suggestions that basically amount to "nerf your player's chosen one thing they are really good at", that's a bad road to head down for everyone at the table.

Take it as a DM's challenge, to create encounters that are interesting and fun even if someone can usually always see everything. I mean, so what if they can see mostly everything, what's the big deal? It's not like they are going to solo your encounters just because they might not be surprised, and might well act early in the initiative. Let that player have their fun, and mix it up to make sure the other players also get their chances to be good at stuff that's not just the first round of combat, or noticing details when they first enter a room, etc.

In short, try and avoid too many "surprise, monsters attack!" moments. And don't try and hide away clues that an observant PC should spot - let the clues lead to interesting situations still.

 

[MNblockhead]

I just has this same issue. A rogue in the party I'm DMing for has 21 passive perception. I don't care about him not being able to be surprised. My problem was with how traps and secret doors we becoming pointless. In many published adventures, he'll just notice every trap and secret door. This was really bugging me in my latest sessions, but I realize that this is more about me not handling the passive perception to investigation flow very well. My thoughts of handling this are:

1. Don't punish the player for his build by ignoring RAW

2. You could just increase the DC, but don't.

Increasing the DC of traps to make things more difficult doesn't sit well with me. This is just punishing your player. He can never benefit from his character's increasing skills because you are just increasing the DC to thwart him. For a trap or secret door to have a DC above 20, it needs to have a special story behind it. It would need to have been designed by Grimtooth on his best day in his prime. If all the secret doors and traps in all your dungeons are 22 and above in higher-tier play...that's just dumb.

3. Perception means you notices something amiss, not that you solve the trap and find the door. There is no passive investigation.

Perception simply means that you see something worth investigating. Granted, many characters with high passive perception are going to have great investigation skills as well, but the thing is they have to roll. They could get a 1. There is still some chance of failure, even if they will breeze through most traps and doors. I realize that any skill check could be passive, but I don't do passive investigation and I've never had a player complain. Investigation by definition seems to have to be active. Ignoring passive perception, on the other hand, would be unfair for your players unless you make this home-brew rule clear from the very beginning.

4. You can throw in false leads

Not everything that is suspicious is a trap or secret door. Sometimes the designers or builders made a mistake, made an unusual design choice, or age and movement of earth or seeping water creates discolorations and cracks. Have your rogue investigate these so they are never sure if when they rolled low on investigation that they missed a trap. If you have enough instances of them noticing something strange and after rolling a high investigation score discovering it was just a trick of the light or an unusual erosion pattern, well, when they roll low on investigation they might not automatically assume it is a trap.

5. Not all traps can be perceived passively

Say you have a door. A regular door. But on the other size, a string is tied to the door handle, the other end pulls a release that sends a huge log swinging down and out the door smashing anyone in its way. Walking by that door will not tell you anything. The character still needs to be in the habit of investigating every door maybe opening ever so slightly to see if it feels like there is more resistance than there should peaking through the crack, whatever. Bottom line is that a roll is still needed.

I don't think, therefore, that there is an issue with the rules, but for newer DMs, I do think they could have made it easier to understand the interplay of perception and investigation.

 

[Quickleaf]

How do you guys handle players with really high passive perception? I have one that got the Observant feat and high Perception already, giving them 21 Passive Perception at level 1... How the hell do I deal with that!? They spot everything at all times...

[MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] has some good advice upthread (as always).

My answer is a bit involved, but it amounts to craft better (i.e. clear but not give-away) clues as a DM. Actually, this advice is true regardless of high passive Perception.

A lot of D&D example – in the book and streamed on Twitch - have Perception (whether passive or active checks) revealing traps, secret doors, and other stuff like that. The DM says (or the book implies the correct response is) "you see a tripwire" or "you see the outline of a pit trap" or "yes, there's a secret door in the alcove."

Personally, I find that approach really damaging to immersion and involvement in the game. And it's a far cry from challenging the players' logical/creative thinking. As soon as you say "you see the outline of a pit trap" you've taken away the mystery. There's no threat now. Not really. Unless you're throwing in monsters that are imposing forced movement or using one of the horribly meta-gamey Grimtooth's Traps.

Instead, I want to give the player a clue that alludes to the presence of something unusual, but doesn't make it clear what that is exactly.

For example, I might say to the 21 passive Perception PC's player: "You notice signs of weathering as if from shuffling feet around the edges of the central flagstone of this passage."

A savvy player is going to wonder whether the flagstone could be a trap. Maybe they'll wonder if it's the flagstone that's trapped or the space to the side of it.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Good points about perception not being a catch-all for traps. Some traps may have a much more difficult DC with Perception than Investigation. Take a poison needle in a lock. It's probably housed well into the lock housing and very difficult to pick up with just a glance (Perception), but easier to discover if you Investigate the lock.

 

[CydKnight]

How do you guys handle players with really high passive perception? I have one that got the Observant feat and high Perception already, giving them 21 Passive Perception at level 1... How the hell do I deal with that!? They spot everything at all times...

As a DM, you know they have a high Passive Perception so you can plan accordingly when appropriate. I am sure there are a few ways you could even use that against them in the right situation.

 

[iserith]

I just has this same issue. A rogue in the party I'm DMing for has 21 passive perception. I don't care about him not being able to be surprised. My problem was with how traps and secret doors we becoming pointless. In many published adventures, he'll just notice every trap and secret door. This was really bugging me in my latest sessions, but I realize that this is more about me not handling the passive perception to investigation flow very well.

In my experience and given the accounts of the countless DMs who take issue with Observant characters (or the equivalent) in the seemingly weekly posts on the matter, the solution that is most overlooked is the one I posted upthread. Nobody has a problem with the character being particularly observant in a given thing - it's when they're walking into a chamber and spotting the hidden monster, the trap, all the clues, AND the secret door without saying anything.

But the rules in Chapter 8 of the Adventuring rules that cover "traveling" (a word I don't think should be confused with overland travel or the like since dungeons are referenced therein and pace is broken down to feet and minutes rather than just miles) talk about how a PC can only really focus on one task at a time (for the most part) and that position matters.

DMs who employ these rules in my experience no longer take issue with Observant characters since the player is still going to be good at noticing things, but only those things the player states the character is focusing on - hidden threats OR secret doors OR other clues, not ALL of them at the same time. The player needs to pick a task and be reasonably specific as to positioning and activity. They don't get to make the choice on the character sheet and that's the end of their involvement.

Edit: Also, for those concerned this is a "nerf," it only appears that way if you haven't been taking into account all the various rules in the book that apply to resolving this mechanic including the rules references above and that of passive checks. So if a player is going to get all "RAW!" on you for some reason, ruling it this way has plenty of rules back-up if you need it.