D&D 5E High Passive Perception

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
[MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] has some good advice upthread (as always).

Thanks!

My answer is a bit involved, but it amounts to craft better (i.e. clear but not give-away) clues as a DM. Actually, this advice is true regardless of high passive Perception.

A lot of D&D example – in the book and streamed on Twitch - have Perception (whether passive or active checks) revealing traps, secret doors, and other stuff like that. The DM says (or the book implies the correct response is) "you see a tripwire" or "you see the outline of a pit trap" or "yes, there's a secret door in the alcove."

Personally, I find that approach really damaging to immersion and involvement in the game. And it's a far cry from challenging the players' logical/creative thinking. As soon as you say "you see the outline of a pit trap" you've taken away the mystery. There's no threat now. Not really. Unless you're throwing in monsters that are imposing forced movement or using one of the horribly meta-gamey Grimtooth's Traps.

Instead, I want to give the player a clue that alludes to the presence of something unusual, but doesn't make it clear what that is exactly.

For example, I might say to the 21 passive Perception PC's player: "You notice signs of weathering as if from shuffling feet around the edges of the central flagstone of this passage."

A savvy player is going to wonder whether the flagstone could be a trap. Maybe they'll wonder if it's the flagstone that's trapped or the space to the side of it.

I do this the other way around. The clue is embedded in the "boxed text" if you will (Step 1: DM describes the environment). This is my telegraphing - everyone gets it for "free."

The "Yes, there's a secret door in the alcove..." or whatever comes after I know there is a character engaged in the task of searching for secret doors at the exclusion of other tasks and I have resolved any uncertainty as to the outcome with a game mechanic.
 

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Quickleaf

Legend
Thanks!

I do this the other way around. The clue is embedded in the "boxed text" if you will (Step 1: DM describes the environment). This is my telegraphing - everyone gets it for "free."

You're welcome :)

Shame on me for choosing a quick an dirty example. Yeah, the steps I use are pretty much the same. I telegraph with "boxed text" in the same way, then go from there.

There's a tension, right?

On one side is "giving them enough info." On the other side is "keeping them wondering/guessing/engaged."

The "Yes, there's a secret door in the alcove..." or whatever comes after I know there is a character engaged in the task of searching for secret doors at the exclusion of other tasks and I have resolved any uncertainty as to the outcome with a game mechanic.

Requiring the players to engage is good! What concerns me are common posts like the OP about passive Perception & the Observant feat suggesting that it's common practice for DMs to cross-reference, for example, a secret door's or a pit trap's Perception DC with a PC's high passive Perception score and say something like, "OK, Meliford, as you pass by the alcove your keen elven senses notice a secret door." :-S I winced even writing that. Haha.

And it's not just the OP (don't mean to single you out!). I see this sort of thinking in the DMG, I see it in my gaming group sometimes, on Twitch streams, on the rare occasions I've joined a gaming event at my FLGS.

When I looked deeply at traps, Perception, and Investigation, I realized there is a whole group of "trap" monsters that get the False Appearance trait: Animated Objects, some Blights, Cloakers, Darkmantles, some Fungi, Galeb Duhr, Gargoyles, some Mephits, Mimics, Gray Oozes, Piercers, Ropers, Scarecrows, Treants, and Awakened Shrubs/Trees.

The wording is stark: While the _______ remains motionless, it is indistinguishable from a _______. Compared to a hag's Illusory Appearance (which a creature can use an action to try to see through with Investigation) there is NO check that's necessarily involved with False Appearance. The implication, similar to deducing the presence/identity of a Doppelganger, is that you have to interact with the Galeb Duhr to figure out that it isn't actually a boulder.

So if a threat like a Galeb Duhr can be indistinguishable from a normal boulder – NO check involved until interacted with – then why shouldn't a Rolling Boulder Trap or whatever have exactly the same False Appearance trait?

Taking a page from the recent UA traps article, if I were writing up countermeasures to a Galeb Duhr (conceiving of it similarly to a trap), I might write:

[SECTION]Countermeasures:
  • Dwarves know the true measure of stone, and by touching the "stone" recognize the Galeb Duhr for what it is.
  • A spellcaster using a spell affecting stone, such as stone shape, on the "stone" causes the disgruntled Galeb Duhr to reveal itself.
  • A Druid can expend a use of Wildshape to demand a Galeb Duhr within earshot assume its true form. Similarly, a Cleric of Nature or a Paladin with an Oath of the Ancients can expend a use of Channel Divinity to demand the same.
  • All Galeb Duhr exert a subtle magnetic influence on surrounding rock. By using a compass or lodestone, a character can determine where the source of subtle magnetism is strongest – that will be the Galeb Duhr.
  • The animated boulders of a Galeb Duhr are dim-witted and might be fooled by a character making a quick-witted argument and/or making a DC 15 Charisma check into revealing the Galeb Duhr's location.
  • A character with tremorsense can use an implement like hammer or pick to strike stone within 30 feet of the Galeb Duhr, and pick up subtle vibrations that give away the Galeb Duhr's location.
[/section]

I'm not saying these need (or should) be extrapolated to this level of detail. I'm just demonstrating that dice rolling barely comes into play with these countermeasures. There's no Perception check involved. There's no passive Perception involved. A similar approach could easily apply to traps/secrets.

At least, that's my ideal. Sometimes, as a DM, I get tired or forget or a little frazzled. IMHO what would be *great* in times like those (or for new DMs) are some descriptive entries (whether for "trap" monsters or traps/secrets) with clues organized in a gradient format: boxed text ever so subtly hinting > clue moderately hinting.
 
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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Requiring the players to engage is good! What concerns me are common posts like the OP about passive Perception & the Observant feat suggesting that it's common practice for DMs to cross-reference, for example, a secret door's or a pit trap's Perception DC with a PC's high passive Perception score and say something like, "OK, Meliford, as you pass by the alcove your keen elven senses notice a secret door." :-S I winced even writing that. Haha.

I'm okay with that provided the player has, at some point prior to the DM resolving the passive check, said "I'm keeping watch for hidden dangers such as traps and monsters..." or "I'm searching for secret doors as we travel the dungeon." If it's treated as "anything that is DC X or lower is automatically detected regardless of what the player said he or she is doing as a general task," then I have a problem with it. The actual play podcasts and streams are lousy with that sort of thing. It's really no wonder why we see so many passive Perception threads.

When I looked deeply at traps, Perception, and Investigation, I realized there is a whole group of "trap" monsters that get the False Appearance trait: Animated Objects, some Blights, Cloakers, Darkmantles, some Fungi, Galeb Duhr, Gargoyles, some Mephits, Mimics, Gray Oozes, Piercers, Ropers, Scarecrows, Treants, and Awakened Shrubs/Trees.

The wording is stark: While the _______ remains motionless, it is indistinguishable from a _______. Compared to a hag's Illusory Appearance (which a creature can use an action to try to see through with Investigation) there is NO check that's necessarily involved with False Appearance. The implication, similar to deducing the presence/identity of a Doppelganger, is that you have to interact with the Galeb Duhr to figure out that it isn't actually a boulder.

What I do in these cases is embed some kind of clue in the environment related to the creature with the indistinguishable form such that PCs that engage with the environment have a chance to figure it out. A faded painting of the dungeon lord standing in that very chamber shows an archway, not a door. But plainly there is a door in that archway now...

Alternatively, there's some kind of lore to pick up via research or gathering information wherein I can slip in a warning about such creatures being in the dungeon location.
 

nswanson27

First Post
I'll second the comments about high PP not being a big deal. From a player standpoint, I find that a lot of DM's overrate surprise ambushes.
But on the other hand, a PP of 30 will still not see invisible things nor hear things that are magically silent.
 
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S'mon

Legend
I'll second the comments about high PP not being a big deal. From a player standpoint, I find that a lot of DM's overrate surprise ambushes.
But on the other hand, a PP of 30 will still not see invisible things nor hear things that are magically silent.

If the invisibility or silence is due to an Illusion (not alteration/transmutation) it's actually masking something that's actual visible/noisy. So in principle I think characters should be able to detect the illusion, perhaps even see/hear through it.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
It isn't really that big a deal. I have found that overall, perception bonuses for the most part fail miserably to keep up with stealth bonuses. In practical terms this makes most competent perceptive adventurers on par with a blind man when attempting to spot hidden creatures. A 21 passive is REALLY good but once mid levels are reached its a fair bet that this character won't be able to find the party rogue even half the time, and you can change that to never if the rogue ever gets a cloak of elvenkind.

So don't worry too much.

A little to pvp focused :(

Yeah, I too didn't understand what Exploder was talking about.

Obviously the OP is talking about player character Perception and monster Stealth. Not the other way round.

Since PC skill bonuses quickly outstrip monster skill bonuses, not only do not "perception bonuses for the most part fail miserably to keep up with stealth bonuses", they for the most part utterly overshadow them.

The player character is never interested in finding the party rogue, and will auto-detect even stealthy monsters most of the time.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Let them spot everything at all times?

They invested significant resources into getting that high passive perception. Let them enjoy it. When the party is ambushed they get to shine by not being surprised. Things like that.
Are you two aware there are DMs and play groups that DOESNT WANT their game to hand out ato-detection as a game feature at all?

I mean, this is a legitimate problem.

A reply like "let them spot everything at all times" is flippantly dismissing the OP's entire reasoning. You can do better.
 

Gwarok

Explorer
They invested significant resources into getting that high passive perception. Let them enjoy it. When the party is ambushed they get to shine by not being surprised. Things like that.

Great answer! If a player wants that to be what his guy is all about, let them. It's neat. I have an NPC I made who's basically Sherlock Holmes, high INT, decent WIS, Observant and Keen Mind, and at 6th he's definitely got expertise in both Perception and Investigation. A bit light in the fight side, but as a rogue he can usually get in some good licks and he's really fun to play. DM's here, at least new ones, really seem to make this into an adversarial game, and it's not. Or at least I don't think those make for the most fun. As long as the players are having fun, you're doing it right.
 

Yeah, I too didn't understand what Exploder was talking about.

Obviously the OP is talking about player character Perception and monster Stealth. Not the other way round.

Since PC skill bonuses quickly outstrip monster skill bonuses, not only do not "perception bonuses for the most part fail miserably to keep up with stealth bonuses", they for the most part utterly overshadow them.

The player character is never interested in finding the party rogue, and will auto-detect even stealthy monsters most of the time.

Reading is fundamental. In case it was forgotten, our games feature a lot of NPCs with character levels. So NPC rogues & assassins have the stealth bonuses of PCs.
The comparison to the party rogue was for illustration purposes.

So if the party rogue has little to no chance of being spotted, then NPC rogues.......... get it?
 


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