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High-Tech Forces vs. High-Magic Forces

Hussar

Legend
With a population of 7B and growing, he can't keep them all in thrall.

Even assuming he gets & keeps the humans in positions of power, that is still going to leave "The Resistance" a significant number of potential recruits.

Doesn't have to. He gets on a public broadcast and everyone who listens to him for 6 seconds is his thrall for a bit longer than two weeks and still FRIENDLY after that. There is no resistance. Do you try to kill your friends? You might disagree with them, but, I'm thinking that very few people send suicide bombers to their friend's houses.

Never mind that as soon as the suicide bomber gets within bombing distance, he's subject to Charm Monster - 95% of the time he's charmed, and six seconds later, he's a fanatical convert of the Le Shay.

Oh, and as soon as he's within 60 feet, the Le Shay automatically knows what he's thinking - at will detect thoughts.

This thing is close enough to being a god that he can see godhood on a clear day.

On a side note, what would a recording of someone this convincing do? Could you diplomatize someone with a DVD?
 

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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Doesn't have to. He gets on a public broadcast and everyone who listens to him for 6 seconds is his thrall for a bit longer than two weeks and still FRIENDLY after that. There is no resistance. Do you try to kill your friends? You might disagree with them, but, I'm thinking that very few people send suicide bombers to their friend's houses.

1) not everyone has a TV

2) just because you're someone's friend doesn't mean you'll give them a pass if you think they're threatening something you value even more deeply. The American Civil War- and others besides- pitted brothers against brothers, fathers against sons. I'd bet there are enough patriots in the world who would see the LeShay a threat to their respective country/way of life that some would try to kill their "friend."

3) some people are psychopathic/sociopathic, and have no qualms about killing people they "like"- not all of them are serial killers, either.

Never mind that as soon as the suicide bomber gets within bombing distance, he's subject to Charm Monster - 95% of the time he's charmed, and six seconds later, he's a fanatical convert of the Le Shay.

It's a Gaze attack, meaning the person would have to meet it's eyes to be affected.
Besides, that's why the bomb:

1) would not be controlled by the bomber (timer, radio controlled by someone else, etc., such as in the Collar Bomb Heist), or

2) would not need to get within 60' to be lethal (see OKC), or

3) would be delivered via a method too fast for the bomber to change plans once within the LeShay's sphere of influence (9/11), or

4) the bomber is blind, or

5) other

Oh, and as soon as he's within 60 feet, the Le Shay automatically knows what he's thinking - at will detect thoughts.

See above, plus "at will" /= "always on for everyone in range"- specifically in this case, the detect thoughts power is a conical effect, not a radius effect.

On a side note, what would a recording of someone this convincing do? Could you diplomatize someone with a DVD?

I'd say it's no more or less effective than the broadcast you suggested- I'd probably give a penalty, but the LeShay's bonuses are big enough that it wouldn't matter.
 
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IOW, you're saying a Vulcan cannon or Metalstorm can't harm the LeShay based on the stats of a completely different weapon. That makes no sense.

There is- quite literally- a huge difference in the size & mass of the projectile launched by a minigun and a Vulcan. That is why it is used to destroy tanks.

http://www.rense.com/general93/mime-attachment 96.jpeg

In the 6 second round the Metalstorm was trained on a LeShay, that would mean 100,000 rounds of ammunition potentially hitting it- approximately 1000x the number of rounds delivered by the minigun. There simply is no weapon statted out in D20 that approximates this.

Metal Storm 36 Barrel Prototype-One Million Rounds per Minute Rate of Fire - YouTube

And the fact that something from the RW isn't statted out shouldn't remove it from consideration in what is, essentially, a thought experiment.

It is a thought experiment, one I am finding quite entertaining, but the only common frame of reference we have here is the official stats.

You seem to think that automatic weapons can do 800+ points of damage in one round. I reject that concept on the grounds there is nothing anywhere in the rules to suggest that any automatic weapon can do even close to a high three-digit damage total.

Yes, Metalstorm throws an incredible number of rounds in a ridiculously small amount of time. I'm quite familiar with the weapon system, I am also aware that a number of practical considerations have kept it in the prototype phase for years now and it's not an operational weapon with any army because the serious issues in making it operational. I'm also familiar with the well established precedent in d20 Modern/Future rules that automatic weapons don't scale linearly as the number of rounds fired increased.

As I noted, Hastur from Call of Cthuhlu has less staying power in a fight than a LeShay. The same attack that could kill a LeShay in one hit or one round could also take down Boccob, Lolth, Vecna, Wee Jas, Aphrodite, Hercules, Hestia, Anubis, Imhotep and Sobek. (looking in Deities and Demigods). Realize that's the scale of damage you are talking about here.

I pointed out that this is enough to take out armored vehicles and all within, then extrapolated from that that it would probably do more than enough damage to kill a LeShay. That a Hellfire missile has been statted out by someone as 15d6 just goes hand in hand with my contention that modern weapons in D20 have their damage seriously nerfed...probably to 1) keep the rules consolidated and 2) to facilitate viability of mixed-genre games.

Those damage totals are quite in line with the stats for vehicles provided.

330 Foot Luxury Yacht: 94 HP and Hardness 5
M1 Abrams Tank: 64 HP and Hardness 20
UH-60 Blackhawk: 46 HP and Hardness 6
V-22 Osprey: 52 HP and Hardness 5
Humvee: 38 HP and Hardness 5
Ford Crown Victoria (typical police car): 24 HP and Hardness 5

With stats like those for vehicles, the damage given for heavy weapons are quite reasonable for destroying them (remembering that destroying them does not mean completely reducing them to scrap, the same way that reducing a person to 0 HP means reducing them to a bloody pulp, that's the amount of damage to totally incapacitate the vehicle).

We are used to playing PC's with HP totals like that, but they are the outliers, remember that a typical person has typically between 2 to 7 HP depending on the details (1st level D&D commoner with 1d4 HP would have 2 or 3 on average, 3 or 4 if he was an Expert instead of a Commoner. 2nd level d20 Modern ordinary with 2d6 HP would have about 7 on average). Don't let the sky-high HP totals of those rare PC's skew your understanding of how tough (or not) most people and things are.

The extrapolation that a weapon can kill a LeShay because it can take out a tank is like saying a weapon can kill Lolth (a being with similar HP and DR) because it can kill a Mummy in one hit (a being with DR and similar HP total).

IEDs can be very powerful.

You may note that some IEDs are made from scavenged military munitions, and that devices like the the OKC truck bomb that took out the Murrah building are considered IEDs.

And, FWIW, that particular IED has proven it can toss & shred a multi-ton armored vehicle quite a distance- equivalent to or superior to certain kinds of military munitions.
I know quite well the capabilities of IED's. I've lost friends to them.

However, that being said, I know that the particularly dangerous ones like EFP's are very time consuming to build, take expensive and detailed components, and highly skilled bombmakers to achieve effects similar to what we can mass produce.

The VBIED used in OKC was a huge outlier in IED construction. Even then, saying it could do 800+ HP of damage seems very out of line with the damage of other heavy weapons and HP totals of vehicles.
 

Stalker0

Legend
I've seen movies where zombies take over the earth.

ZOMBIES, people. Cheap little cannon-fodder CR 1 zombies.

Those level 1 speed-bumps took over the earth. So yeah, I think the magic guys might have a chance here.

Cheers, -- N

Yeah, in movies, we are talking real life here!:)
 

Stalker0

Legend
Unless stopped right at the beginning, I think LeShay would have it in the bag.

1) Gather Info: Quickly get up to speed on key country leaders and the most powerful weapons the world had to offer.
2) 5 minutes later: Fanaticize Leaders of all nuclear armed countries to take out the big guns.
3) Systematically acquire all other key leaders/captains of industry.
4) Have them bring you any other personnel you need to acquire.
5) Once the military is dealt with, go on TV. Roll big check, fanaticize the world.

CheckMate. While I think there are likely weapons that could stop him they wouldn't get to be fired. Literally by the time he started doing anything offensive he could acquire so many world assets that no one would have the will to bring those weapons to bear.


But....that's not the key argument here. We aren't talking about one single superbeing, we are talking about magical armies vs real world armies.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Now you are grasping straws. Why would anyone use such a complicated setup for delivering a bomb, which we already have established wouldn't kill the LeShay anyway?

1) I don't accept the premise that the LeShay would not be killed by what I'm positing would be used, for reasons stated above.

2) the Iraqis didn't kick the Russians out of their country by beating them outright, they just made the prospect of continued occupation seem so unpalatable that the Russians withdrew. The same principle applies here. Even if you can't kill the LeShay, you can make it uncomfortable enough to deem rulership of Earth to simply not be worth the trouble.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
The VBIED used in OKC was a huge outlier in IED construction. Even then, saying it could do 800+ HP of damage seems very out of line with the damage of other heavy weapons and HP totals of vehicles.

So what if it is an outlier? The LeShay is an outlier itself.

The point is, these are known RW techniques, and if the LeShay survived assassination attempts, eventually, someone would suggest and attempt just such an attack. OKC and 9/11 might be seen as the only viable options at some point.

And that's assuming the Resistance is made of people like you and me. If there were free minds among the military or other similarly capable & connected organizations, "misdirected" military grade weaponry, dirty nukes (or plutonium seasoning for his chef salad), and probably stuff we don't even have clue about would also be on the table.

The same goes for prototype systems like Metalstorm. Even though it is not considered field-ready at this time, in a battle for THE WORLD, someone would give it a try if that option were available.

Why? Because they would be desperate. We see that kind of attitude all over fiction- what we have doesn't stop Godzilla, so what do the eggheads have in their labs we can try? The invading Martians are invulnerable to nukes, so what else do we have?

The same mentality exists in real life.

Look at what the Axis powers were researching/contemplating right before they lost, you'll find stuff we know works- jets, nukes, etc.- and exotica like vortex cannons and death rays.

So what none of this is already statted out for WotC's take on D20. Do you mean to say if a play asked to make a Metalstorm type device- and having the requisite skills and facilities- you'd say "No" to the request?

Go back and read this thread, you'll find I'm NOT "Tech side wins Dude"- I point out strengths and weaknesses of BOTH sides.

As for LeShay vs Deity HP & defenses: it has always been my position that deity stats only represent the avatars they manifest to beings on planes other than their own. Destroying such an avatar is like a scraped knee- painful, but not life threatening, and it will get better.

So while a nuke might wipe out the LeShay and Cthulhu, Cthulhu might still return some day.
 
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Derren

Hero
And that's assuming the Resistance is made of people like you and me.

What resistance?
Why would anyone resist the LeShey in the same way one would resist an occupational force?

The LeShey is charismatic enough to get elected legitimately and then can easily influence other world leaders after meeting them at a G20 or UN summit. Why would there even be a resistance?
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Why would anyone resist the LeShey in the same way one would resist an occupational force?

<snip>

Why would there even be a resistance?

Depends upon how the LeShay wants to rule the world. If the LeShay instituted worldwide pantheism as the mandatory faith, that would cheese off a few billion people of various faiths.

What if he cracked down on things like cocaine, tobacco, etc., with military force? What if he did the same for junk food?

What if he didn't like anyone darker than Asians since they reminded him of Drow, and instituted a genocide?

(They can have any alignment, after all.)

Some things are deeper than friendship, and the more he tries to reshape our world, the more negative modifiers he could accumulate.

Instead of Tim Leary's "Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.", you'd hear "Tune out, Drop out, Arm up."

How many would there be?

Well, assuming every human were targetable, he'd still fail to persuade 1 in every 20. That's about 350M worldwide. Of course, not everyone has access to a TV. So that might get another 50m to the total of unconvinced humanity...at least, temporarily.

Diplomacy normally requires a minute of using the skill, but with its bonuses, the LeShay could usually risk thë -10 mod for doing a rushed, full round check.

But sometimes, even that isn't enough time. Just as an FYI, if the LeShay took on Obama's form, he'd never convince my Mom of anything over the airwaves- she sees his face or hears his voice, she immediately changes the channel.* And her hearing is in decline, so she usually doesn't hear the TV so much as read it- that delay takes enough time that the Obama LeShay's words wouldn't even register.






* FWIW, she's black and a registered Dem.
 
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