High-Tech Forces vs. High-Magic Forces

[Hussar]

Well, assuming every human were targetable, he'd still fail to persuade 1 in every 20. That's about 350M worldwide. Of course, not everyone has access to a TV. So that might get another 50m to the total of unconvinced humanity...at least, temporarily.

That's actually a mistake. There is no autofails on skill checks in D20. He persuades every single person who hears him. If he has two minutes to talk, then he doesn't take the -10 to his check and pretty much autoconverts anyone who hears him for 17 days and then they still think favourably (friendly) after that.

If I got a "friendly" result on a diplomacy check and they still send IED's and suicide bombers after me, I'm thinking that that's the last time I play with that DM.

As far as anyone who cannot hear him - people with no radio, television or internet, those people also don't generally have nukes or high tech weaponry either.

It would be pretty simple for the first message going out to be, "Now, bring my message to everyone else!" and blanket the planet.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That's actually a mistake. There is no autofails on skill checks in D20.

Oops! You're 100% right!

He persuades every single person who hears him. If he has two minutes to talk, then he doesn't take the -10 to his check and pretty much autoconverts anyone who hears him for 17 days and then they still think favourably (friendly) after that.

He doesn't need the 2 minutes- the full-round (6 sec) version with the -10 mid will still probably result in an 80+% success rate (I haven't actually done the numbers). That's probably good enough.

However, "friendly" isn't an eternal state since this is non-magical. If your people were targeted for genocide by his forces and you knew it and he didn't speak to you for 17 days, "friendly" Would evaporate into "hostile" pretty much instantaneously.

If I got a "friendly" result on a diplomacy check and they still send IED's and suicide bombers after me, I'm thinking that that's the last time I play with that DM.

Hey, sometimes "friendly" simply isn't good enough. History is full of people who killed their friends and family- honor killings*, "just business", "for the greater good", etc.

As far as anyone who cannot hear him - people with no radio, television or internet, those people also don't generally have nukes or high tech weaponry either.

I can think of a few people who do without those conveniences, and not all of them are Unabomber/OBL types. Now, none of those I know personally are violent, but one is a retired Army demolitions expert. (He likes his solitude.)

The thing is, someone not in thrall to the LeShay with the proper skillset could still get access to the necessary equipment if he or she is wise enough. The guys guarding the munitions in "Landru's" world don't have magic powers to determine whether someone is still loyal. A little wax a la Odysseus and he won't hear enough to become enthralled. Ditto a set of fake earpieces (see multiple episodes of Dr Who).

Then there are the survivalists who have pirate and/or shortwave radio.

As for the Internet...when has ANYONE been convinced of ANYTHING contra to their personal viewpoints on the Internet?

It would be pretty simple for the first message going out to be, "Now, bring my message to everyone else!" and blanket the planet.

But using intermediaries won't work. They won't be as convincing. People slam the door on Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons and Hare Krishnas every day. They change channels from CNN or Fox to watch The Cartoon Network.

Even if he takes over all the radio and tv stations simultaneously, some people will turn them off.

If he uses the EBS system, people will tune out once they realize there's no tornado, hurricane or Amber alert, thinking its some joker playing a prank.







* by "honor killing", I mean in the broadest possible sense any killing in any culture related to the preservation of personal, familial, institutional, religious, political, business or other honor.

 

[Nellisir]

Argh. Catastrophic failed Will save to not read this thread and not post.

EDIT: NO, NO! I WON'T DO IT, AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!

<sigh>
Maybe 5e will give me a better Will save?
Cheers

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

OK, first off, your "resistance" is a bunch of disconnected people who don't like to communicate and have no way of identifying each other

All resistance movements share those communication & identification issues. This is a hurdle, not an insurmountable barrier.

Secondly, if you really think your retired demolitions buddy can walk onto a military base alone, obtain explosives sufficient to obliterate a building

No, while he still has access to military bases, he probably could not access a munitions storage area without help as things are today. The question is open, though, whether such a level of security would remain intact und the LeShay's rule.

In "This Side of Paradise" the crew of the Enterprise, enthralled by alien plants, abandon their positions to live planetside. This leaves the ship and all its resources unguarded.

While I doubt the LeShay would have troops stand down completely, the guards in question may not be as vigilant as they would be. Their minds would expect anyone approaching to be as loyal as they are, as opposed to the suspicious minds of the unentrhalled.

Just as people have questioned whether someone would use an IED on someone they thought a "friend", the question is just as valid here- would an enthralled guard be disciplined enough to shoot someone who is supposedly just as besotted by the LeShay as he is?

As for my buddy, I know he could make an OKC device, though.

You and I know that it is possible to make such a device with materials common to farming. We also know that certain materials even contain unique plastic identifying beads so they can be tracked to individuals.

But this is an alien concern, probably outside the LeShay's experience. He would have to ask the right questions to recognize the threat.

Fourth, if we're just going to make up random bad stuff for the LeShay to do

The LeShay can be ANY alignment.

One who is LN may deem drugs a hedonistic scourge and attempt their eradication. One who is CE Might engage in genocide. Etc.

we might as well throw gas rationing and travel papers into the mix

If I were a LeShay, I probably would. But that just makes things difficult, not impossible.

Milgram experiment.

Familiar with it- VERY familiar. What's your point?

Just because someone is willing to do great evil in someone's name if they think it is for a good cause/they're trying to follow instructions, YOU won't quietly accede to extinction unless you yourself are in the "fanatic" mind state.

Not only that, while the Milgrim experiment's results are pretty horrifying, we also have RW counter examples from the very regimes that inspired the experiment, illustrating that it is possible for people to disobey authority in the face of death.

On top of this, there seems to be an underlying assumption that someone can be a fanatic about only one thing at a time. Admittedly, this is at least in part because of the way the skills are we printed in D20- there is no consideration as to what happens when someone is trying to convert a fanatic to a fanatic of opposite intent. I don't know about you, but I already have things in my life I would be willing to die for.

 

[Hussar]

As for the Internet...when has ANYONE been convinced of ANYTHING contra to their personal viewpoints on the Internet?

I wonder what the skill check penalty would be for this?

Funnily enough, if you step away from D&D for a second and look at other games, you can actually get decent games out of this setup. Sufficiently Advanced, for example, allowed for this style of thing, mostly because your PC had powers equivalent to that Le Shay (or could if you wanted) and you could be dealing with fairly low tech (ie. present day) societies.

It was entirely possible for the extremely advanced individuals to pretty much take over the world.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I thought in terms of a lot of systems in this thread...just not obviously.

D20 nerfs modern weapons over the small-arms size,but many systems do not. My early questions about the way magic does or does not function in our world- and why- don't make as much sense in D20 as in other systems.

The thing is, whoever designed the LeShay could just as easily made it even tougher- its Charm power could have been an aura with a radius instead of a conical gaze attack, for instance- making its plans for world domination even more likely.

 

[pippenainteasy]

As I noted, Hastur from Call of Cthuhlu has less staying power in a fight than a LeShay. The same attack that could kill a LeShay in one hit or one round could also take down Boccob, Lolth, Vecna, Wee Jas, Aphrodite, Hercules, Hestia, Anubis, Imhotep and Sobek. (looking in Deities and Demigods). Realize that's the scale of damage you are talking about here.

Yeah but that's not much of a scale...D&D gods are incredibly weak, they can't even beat a mid-tier Marvel or DC character. Not even considering their lame stats, even within the lore greater deities get taken down by lesser powers all the time.

 

[Hussar]

Heh, this is a fun thought exercise.

Here's my "Ultimate Bastard Le Shay Conquest Scenario"

Day 1 - Le Shay teleports and uses its charm/diplomacy powers to gain access to major television network broadcasts. Starts with English and moves on to every major language group in the world. Tells the victims to continuously broadcast. The message sent out is, "I am the new messiah. Spread the word. Make sure EVERYONE hears and sees this."

Day 2-4 - Le Shay, with the backing of every world political and religious leader (since it's likely they would all see the broadcast), institutes actions to continue spreading the word - airplanes and helicopters with honking big speakers, public announcement systems, TV, Radio, Shortwave broadcast, Internet, etc. Again, the message is "Spread the word. Make sure everyone hears this."

Day 5 - New message goes out. "Spread the word. Anyone who refuses to listen is a demon and must be killed." Sucks for the deaf, but, them's the breaks.

Day 6 to 13 - continue to spread the word, blanketing everywhere possible.

Day 14 - Announce a major announcement in 2 days. Everyone must watch. Spread the word. Anyone not watching is a demon and must be killed on sight.

Day 16 - With about 95-98% of the world watching the announcement, the Le Shay Jim Jones' the entire planet. Mass suicide cult style. He's going to take them all to Heaven.

Day 17 - The remaining pockets of humanity are basically tribes with no outside contact with the world in areas like the Amazon basin or Papua New Guinea. The Le Shay makes contact with these people and sets himself up as the new God Emperor of everything.

Three or four generations later, he begins a massive program of social engineering, with himself firmly ensconced as the God Emperor.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

He'd need a bit more time than that- command centers for things like ships at sea and cetain businesses wouldn't be monitoring commercial broadcasts, and some facilities bar or have limitations on which areas devices that would pick up things like radio or tv. (My brief stint at TI was one such place.)

For things like those military command centers, many off-duty personnel might be affected, but it wouldn't be so fast and thorough that others couldn't react. To convert an aircraft carrier or sub without incident, for instance, he might have to get control of the base that is broadcasting on command channels to convert the bridge first.

And he wants those to go without incident- he really wouldn't want the crew of an aircraft carrier to have the time to lock up the ones who were listening on their personal radios or the TVs in the lounge areas, because that would give them a chance to recognize the origin & nature of the threat.

Better for the LeShay that he convert the bridge crew and have them channel his message through the ship's PA system, achieving near total control fairly quickly.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

.....snip


Day 17 - The remaining pockets of humanity are basically tribes with no outside contact with the world in areas like the Amazon basin or Papua New Guinea. The Le Shay makes contact with these people and sets himself up as the new God Emperor of everything.

Three or four generations later, he begins a massive program of social engineering, with himself firmly ensconced as the God Emperor.

And so we get the Warhammer 40K universe