High-Tech Forces vs. High-Magic Forces

[Dannyalcatraz]

Not only that, if we haven't started using nukes, we will.

I actually raised the *ahem* specter of using WMDs early on.

In addition, we have other weapons that would be a surprise for fantasy forces. We have vertigo-inducing lasers if you want tomb non-violent, and lasers that can lunch through steel if you don't.

We are also making great strides in sonic warfare, and have deployable weapons that use focused sound, high pitched piercing noises, and lethal dBs of volume. Some even use subsonics...also capable of non-lethal or lethal effects.

Bottom line: both sides have weapons and tactics at their disposal that the other side is poorly prepared to deal with, at least initially. The deciding factors will be who uses which of those weapons first, and how broadly such tactics get used.

If, for instance, someone reading this thread happened to have their finger on "The Button" when the invasion occurred, he might go nuclear even before a magical breach-head could be established.

 

[KiloGex]

I'm pretty sure that if you put a group of 5th level wizards against a military company that magic would win over tech. Just look at the spell lists: Dimensional Door, Ball Lightning, Mass Fly, Fiendform, Death Throes, Metal Melt, Forcewave, Orb of Force, Dragon Polymorph, Wall of Force. A small group of wizards would be able to destroy a military base in no time, before they even knew what was going on.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm pretty sure that if you put a group of 5th level wizards against a military company that magic would win over tech. Just look at the spell lists: Dimensional Door, Ball Lightning, Mass Fly, Fiendform, Death Throes, Metal Melt, Forcewave, Orb of Force, Dragon Polymorph, Wall of Force. A small group of wizards would be able to destroy a military base in no time, before they even knew what was going on.

OTOH, a military company can engage an identified target from over the horizon.

I can just see the wizards sitting there making their war plans, when one says, "Hey, anybody else hear a high-pitched whistling noise?"


*BOOOOOOOOOOOM*

 

[prosfilaes]

I'm pretty sure that if you put a group of 5th level wizards against a military company that magic would win over tech. Just look at the spell lists: Dimensional Door, Ball Lightning, Mass Fly, Fiendform, Death Throes, Metal Melt, Forcewave, Orb of Force, Dragon Polymorph, Wall of Force. A small group of wizards would be able to destroy a military base in no time, before they even knew what was going on.

As 5th level mage, you don't have Dimensional Door; that's a fourth level spell. Mass Fly is 5th level, IIRC; in any case, certainly higher than the 3rd level Fly. Orb of Force is also 4th level.

I think your plan of attack would fail dramatically. A 5th level wizard with an 18 Int has 4 first, 3 second and 2 third level spells. Even assuming 3d4 + 3 or 5d6 is enough to drop a trained Marine (i.e. Marines are all first level with no Con bonus), each Marine has more bullets then each wizards has spells. And there's a lot more Marines than wizards. Sooner or later, each wizard is going to run out of spells and is going to run into a small group of soldiers that have been alerted through phone or walkie-talkie, and is going to get shot repeatedly.

(And realistically, if you're using D&D-ish rules, some of the guys on our side of the portal should be high level, too. If fantasy world gets an unlimited supply of 5th level wizards, the real world should get a bunch of 5th level fighters. Yes, if all the real world people can be taken down by a high-level magic missile, and you're invading with a bunch of forces that can shake off the 2d12 the .50 cal sniper rifle can do, then things are a little stacked.)

 

[Verdande]

Stepping a bit back but... no-way, no-how.

I think you vastly underestimate the logistics behind extending force. Those people have to be moved, supplied with gear, and, most importantly, fed.

This Thanksgiving, it is estimated that 42 million Americans will travel 50 miles or more from home. And that travel is distributed over the entire nation, not all at one spot - it is spread through all the planes, trains, and highways, and it'll still be massively crowded.

Now, try to move more than double the number of people, and put them all in one spot, so most of them are traveling a lot more than 50 miles. There is no place on the planet set up to handle that kind of influx in anything like short order. In addition, continuously move a hundred million gallons of water and a three hundred million pounds of food *EACH DAY* to those people. And, get all these people their guns, and medical care for when they've been rent asunder by an ogre...

Oh, and move and feed all the people to support the fighters, as well.

No. That's just not happening.

You are vastly underestimating the world's capability for organization, movement, and discipline. You're probably imagining a massive crush of people, milling about and throwing ammunition at each other, but it's really more of clockwork.

You'd have people organize into their units, standing in lines to receive their gear, their food, their weapons, their water, sitting through breifings, getting into airplanes, and going where they need to go. Very orderly, very boring, very organized.

"But it's a lot of units all at once!" No, it sure isn't. It's one unit at a time, through redundant military airports, processing stations, armories, and centers. First the recon units, then the base constructing guys, then the security elements, then the main army force, then you rotate each of those units out.

Now, I don't know how difficult it would be to move 100 million people, per se, especially considering that the US' military strength is 1 or 2 million people. The real point is that it's entirely possible for everybody in the world, from every country, to field 100 million people. I can't think of a single reason we'd need 100 million people around, especially when we're dealing with high-explosive rounds, ICBMs, tanks, artillery, ship-board bombardments, aircraft and aircraft carriers, and the like; or when you consider the fact that the US alone probably has enough conventional explosives stockpiled to turn a medium-sized country into glass.

But I'm pretty sure it could be done.

The reason that Thanksgiving is such a mess is that it's totally disorganized, with people taking less optimal routes, not considering the travel plans of others, and travelling down a totally decentralized system and going who the hell knows where. When you organize properly, you get a lot more done, and that's kind of the one thing the military is good at.

I could go into it more, but I'm already afraid I've gone rather into more depth than I'd intended.

 

[apoptosis]

I went to look up the numbers ... and 100 million is a low estimate. We've been there, done that. That's how many people the world had under arms in WWII. No, not on one battlefield, and that includes support... but the population of Faerûn is less than 50 million (FRCS, 3ed). We can win a battle of attrition.



What are their goals? That's the equivalent of dropping a nuke on a city, except that turns the enemy civilians into creatures that can destroy your troops on a touch and is spreading from city to city. Unless you've got serious magical backup, that could burn the invaders.

Not only that, if we haven't started using nukes, we will. Oh, and do they have DNA, because biological warfare is back on the table, and goblin-specific plagues are now looking amazingly safe. If they thought they could keep any country uninvolved or neutral, I don't think any nation is going to be comfortable while the invaders are dropping spawning undead in cities.

Goblin-specific plagues is not really on the table unless we are talking basically science fiction.

Having done lots of genetic engineering and molecular biology in my time with many different types of vectors, this while possible is venturing into the science fiction arena.

If goblins are too similar then you are just making a disease that can kill anyone. If they are too different any virus (or bacteria) from our world might not be viable to replicate in them. We could potentially try and isolate plagues (i use that term very loosely to include virus, bacteria, fungus etc.) that are endemic to their world and modify them but that is most likely a very long road that would most likely be unproductive.

While theoretically possible this strategy would not be easy, doubtfully very efficient, likely not very effective, and most likely would not work very well if at all.

 

[tomBitonti]

What worries me are scenarios like:

Make a Pact with an Imp

Send him to a nearby base with instructions to find the enemy's biggest weapons, and make them blow up (inside the base) to the best effect for killing the enemy and destroying the base.

Do that for the next seven days, or until there is no-one left to kill at the base.

Try very hard to not be discovered, and kill anyone that discovers you.

Imps are easy to distract, of slightly less than average intelligence, and maybe not the best at this, even though they can turn into rats at will. But, at CR2 / 3 HD are about the cheapest that can be used in this way.

Better, but a lot more expensive, would be an Erinyes (CR 8, 9 HD), with all of:

Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, spell resistance 20, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing,

Plus:

Str 21, Dex 21, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 20

And:

At will—greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), charm monster (DC 19), minor image (DC 17), unholy blight (DC 19).

Should probably be able to do a huge amount of damage.

A problem there of making sure the Erinyes carried through the mission appropriately.

Also, with:

Unlike other devils, erinyes appear attractive to humans, resembling very comely women or men. An erinyes stands about 6 feet tall and weighs about 150 pounds.

An Erinyes could possible go in for extended information gathering, so to get an understanding of the modern humans capabilities, so to find the most devestating attack.

Still a problem of controlling the Erinyes ... since model humans have so much modern stuff, and, have a huge number of souls for the taking.

The combination of Greater Teleport, Telepathy, Charm Monster, plus the high Int, Wis, and Cha, seem to make for the danger.

TomB

Edit: This may seem unfair, using modern own stuff against the modern folks, but that, along with the relative fragility of some systems, seems to be their biggest weakness. Their biggest defense is probably simply the opponent's lack of understanding of modern capabilities.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Send him to a nearby base with instructions to find the enemy's biggest weapons, and make them blow up (inside the base) to the best effect for killing the enemy and destroying the base.

You're thinking like a RW human- how would the caster or Imp know that a particular weapon "blows up?" Could they even recognize the weapon for what it is?

 

[prosfilaes]

You're thinking like a RW human- how would the caster or Imp know that a particular weapon "blows up?" Could they even recognize the weapon for what it is?

And modern bombs are no longer big piles of gunpowder; many of them can only be detonated by an electric charge, not heat, fire or impact. And there's not going to be ways to detonate them just laying around; they're designed to be dropped or launched, not blown up on base.

One question that keeps coming to mind is where's the other side? If a cleric of Nerull is importing shadows to New York City, where's the cleric of Pelor trying to stop him? Even one cleric with points in knowledge skills could be a huge boon to the real world, and it probably wouldn't be hard for him to gain some converts in this situation.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

...where's the cleric of Pelor trying to stop him?

He'll show up naked in another city, and be mistaken for a crazy person.

Which makes me ask this question: what happens if, by extreme coincidence, the arcane invasion occurs just as SkyNet goes actively malignant? If its bad enough, it radically changes the narrative- suddenly, the arcane invaders must team up with the remnants of humanity to stop the Terminators...