[Hijack] Debate over definition of "grit." Plus: is Midnight gritty?

[ColonelHardisson]

Look up grit in the dictionary, and you will find a picture of Midnight.

Indeed, the characters themselves are more powerful than standard D&D characters. The difference is that all the world is against them. They don't drip with magic items like typical D&D characters do.

It's all in the setting...

The original post was about whether making players roll a straight 3d6 for stats would toss more grit into the game. Sure, grit can be in the setting, but grit is not only defined by the setting. How can it be? "Grit" is a very subjective term, after all. Will 3d6 make a game grittier? Probably. Can grit be put into a game in other, non-game-mechanic ways? Sure.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Come on, guys...go find a thread about Midnight. Stop with the hijacking.

Originally posted by Me
So...before this degenerates into the eternal battle between "Yes it is!" and "No it's not!", how about coming up with ways that this sort of system can work--in practice--without reverting to 1E or Hackmaster?

F'rinstance...what if players rolled 4D6 (drop lowest), or even 5D6 (drop lowest), to generate ONE prime requisite...then roll straight 3D6 five times and arrange all scores as the player desires? This would give PCs their "heroic" qualities, and the ability to freely choose class, while avoiding the inflation.

 

[Desdichado]

Indeed, the characters themselves are more powerful than standard D&D characters. The difference is that all the world is against them. They don't drip with magic items like typical D&D characters do.

It's all in the setting...

That's exactly my point. I don't see how low stats, or sub-optimal stats makes the game gritty in any way. It just makes the game potentially frustrating -- especially to not be able to assign stats where you want them. I have no problem with having average stats -- my preferred method of generating stats is to use the standard array, and then distribute an additional +3 wherever you want it. But I don't assume that that makes my game in any way gritty.

 

[Umbran]

F'rinstance...what if players rolled 4D6 (drop lowest), or even 5D6 (drop lowest), to generate ONE prime requisite...then roll straight 3D6 five times and arrange all scores as the player desires? This would give PCs their "heroic" qualities, and the ability to freely choose class, while avoiding the inflation.

You'd still get the issue that Kid Charlemagne points out - you'll tend to get characters with scores all over the place. It seems to me that stats for something like average people are prety tightly clustered around the average. The 3d6 distribution does peak around the average, but not very strongly. So, you'll have your high stat, yes, but it'll tend to be coupled with stats that are absurdly low. I don't mind an occasional character like that, but having that be the typical result would tend to break my suspension of disbelief.

If you want to keep characters focused near "average human" for stats, but allow them to have an occasional high stat, use a low-end point buy.

In thinking about Grit, my mind went to the genre for which (as I understand it) the term was coined - Westerns. In your typicla Western, the main characters are notably superior to common folk. They are better fighters, wittier, higher force of personality, tougher, the works. But Clint Eastwood movies are still gritty. Why?

Grit is more about the situation and presentation. It's more about choices and consequeces. It's about going it alone, with little help. It's about being dusty and dirty,both physically and metaphorically. It's about a lot of things, but character stats doesn't seem to be one of them.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Come on, guys...go find a thread about Midnight. Stop with the hijacking.

Hey, I'm trying to stay on topic.

 

[Mystery Man]

As for grit, I do think that stats have something to do with it.

Rolling a 3d6 and taking what you get is pretty extreme, but say if you re-roll if its 7 or below, would that be fair?

In 3E terms I don't think any primary stat (or two) that is 12 and up would be considered average at all.

 

[Emiricol]

The original post was about whether making players roll a straight 3d6 for stats would toss more grit into the game. Sure, grit can be in the setting, but grit is not only defined by the setting. How can it be? "Grit" is a very subjective term, after all. Will 3d6 make a game grittier? Probably. Can grit be put into a game in other, non-game-mechanic ways? Sure.

In terms of "grit", a lot more can be put in any standard D&D game by simply going to the D20 Modern system for damage taken. For those who don't have it, any single hit that does more damage than the target's CON score (the "damage threshold") requires a Fort save (DC 15) or immediately go to -1 HP, with creatures that are immune to Crits also being immune to this rule. The D20 Modern feat, Improved Damage Threshold, increases the damage threshold by +3.

Very deadly, and makes cure minor wounds a favored cantrip

 

[Desdichado]

Yeah, I'm a fan of Midnight. I'm not sure how there is any logical gap. The thread was about making the game gritty by making players roll 3d6 for stats. You're making an illogical leap by assuming that I consider Midnight gritty if rolling 3d6 is one of the criteria for grittiness. You're defining the term "gritty" unilaterally and not waiting to see if I'm on the same page with you. You might think Midnight is gritty, and in another context I might agree - but not in the context of this thread.

The logical gap is that, according to Tom Cashel here, low, sub-optimized assignment of stats makes the game gritty. I just showed an example of the grittiest campaign setting on the market (arguably), which ironically is one in which the PCs are higher in power, especially at lower levels, than a standard D&D campaign. My point is that stats and gritty are not directly correlated. In fact, they're not correlated at all -- they're not even on the same graph.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

That's exactly my point. I don't see how low stats, or sub-optimal stats makes the game gritty in any way. It just makes the game potentially frustrating -- especially to not be able to assign stats where you want them. I have no problem with having average stats -- my preferred method of generating stats is to use the standard array, and then distribute an additional +3 wherever you want it. But I don't assume that that makes my game in any way gritty.

That's because you apparently have a very solid perception of what defines "grit." I think it's tough for everyone to come to a consensus on what the term means.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Hey, in this thread grit is somewhat based on the characters and somewhat based on the setting. Since characters are, in turn, based on their stats, grit is therefore related to stats.

(How about a poll, in another thread: What does grit mean to YOU?)

Here I'm trying to figure out how to make something like standard 3D6 work in practice. I'm liking the all the options presented so far.