[Hijack] Debate over definition of "grit." Plus: is Midnight gritty?

[Ashrem Bayle]

Grit is more about the situation and presentation. It's more about choices and consequeces. It's about going it alone, with little help. It's about being dusty and dirty,both physically and metaphorically. It's about a lot of things, but character stats doesn't seem to be one of them.

Agreed..

Thats the point I was trying to make. I don't think stats has anything to do with it.

 

[Desdichado]

That's because you apparently have a very solid perception of what defines "grit." I think it's tough for everyone to come to a consensus on what the term means.

That's true, and that's why I'm pointing out Midnight specifically. It's the exception that shows that the definition being used here isn't useful at all.

 

[Emiricol]

In terms of "grit", a lot more can be put in any standard D&D game by simply going to the D20 Modern system for damage taken. For those who don't have it, any single hit that does more damage than the target's CON score (the "damage threshold") requires a Fort save (DC 15) or immediately go to -1 HP, with creatures that are immune to Crits also being immune to this rule. The D20 Modern feat, Improved Damage Threshold, increases the damage threshold by +3.

Very deadly, and makes cure minor wounds a favored cantrip

Oh, and this has the side benefit of not making characters some players would think of as "broken", or stats that are lower than whatever system your group prefers to use.

 

[Emiricol]

The logical gap is that, according to Tom Cashel here, low, sub-optimized assignment of stats makes the game gritty. I just showed an example of the grittiest campaign setting on the market (arguably), which ironically is one in which the PCs are higher in power, especially at lower levels, than a standard D&D campaign. My point is that stats and gritty are not directly correlated. In fact, they're not correlated at all -- they're not even on the same graph.

Wow, I agree with you

 

[ColonelHardisson]

The logical gap is that, according to Tom Cashel here, low, sub-optimized assignment of stats makes the game gritty. I just showed an example of the grittiest campaign setting on the market (arguably), which ironically is one in which the PCs are higher in power, especially at lower levels, than a standard D&D campaign. My point is that stats and gritty are not directly correlated. In fact, they're not correlated at all -- they're not even on the same graph.

This is an entirely subjective viewpoint. It's valid as an opinion, but it's obvious that many disagree with many of the basic underpinnings of your argument. To be honest, the word "grit" never really stood out to me as a good descriptor of Midnight - dark and desperate are terms that more readily leap to mind for me. Cthulhu is much grittier, in large part due to the utter inability of the characters to not only defeat the evil, but to actually make much of a dent int their world - and I contend the relatively weak abilities of the characters (not just stats, but fighting ability and etc.) are a big part of that.

 

[Zerakon]

So...before this degenerates into the eternal battle between "Yes it is!" and "No it's not!", how about coming up with ways that this sort of system can work--in practice--without reverting to 1E or Hackmaster?

F'rinstance...what if players rolled 4D6 (drop lowest), or even 5D6 (drop lowest), to generate ONE prime requisite...then roll straight 3D6 five times and arrange all scores as the player desires? This would give PCs their "heroic" qualities, and the ability to freely choose class, while avoiding the inflation.

Here is a slight modification of a system I made up, which might be something that meets what you are looking for, in that it keeps the random dice-iness in character generation, but it mixes that with the point-buy concept of not leaving anyone feeling disappointed in their character:

(a) Roll 3d6 five times, placing them in the attributes of your choice.

(b) Sum the stat bonuses of the 5 rolls = X.

(c) Your 6th fixed stat is not rolled but assigned = 15-X.

For example, if you roll "well" with scores of 10 (+0), 9 (-1), 10 (+0), 14 (+2), 10 (+0), then X=1 so your 6th stat will be an ok 14.

OTOH, if you roll "badly" with scores of 8 (-1), 9 (-1), 12 (+1), 7 (-2), 10 (+0), then X=-3 so your 6th stat will be a mighty 18.

And, yeah, if you are so "unlucky" to roll five straight 4's, your 6th stat would be a 30!

-- Zerakon the Game Mage (who wishes people would stay on topic and not turn threads into an eye-rolling rude-fest, my setting is cooler than yours, my rolls are worse than yours, etc.)

edited for grammar and clarity

 

[Emiricol]

Cthulhu is much grittier, in large part due to the utter inability of the characters to not only defeat the evil, but to actually make much of a dent int their world - and I contend the relatively weak abilities of the characters (not just stats, but fighting ability and etc.) are a big part of that.

You've just described Midnight. I thought you wanted to get back on topic?

EDIT: Added intended !!! No flame.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

That's true, and that's why I'm pointing out Midnight specifically. It's the exception that shows that the definition being used here isn't useful at all.

Again, you're assuming people will immediately agree that Midnight is gritty. As I said above, that's just not the term that leaps immediately to mind for me.

I guess we're at loggerheads on this. I'll just lurk on the thread for the time being, since it doesn't seem we're going to get on the same page, and I don't want to totally derail the thread.

 

[Mystery Man]

To be honest, the word "grit" never really stood out to me as a good descriptor of Midnight - dark and desperate are terms that more readily leap to mind for me.

Have to go with the Col. on this one.

 

[Emiricol]

Have to go with the Col. on this one.

Of course you do. You've already done the "na na na na boo boo" tongue thing at the folks who differ with your opinion, so this isn't surprising.