D&D 4E Hints on Sandboxing with 4e?

This would make exploring the wilderness a dangerous activity and anchor the PCs to local towns/cities. Travelling between cities becomes a dangerous game as well (who knows how many random encounters they might have, they might even be forced to turn back).

For random encounters, I'd divide them by region. Each region would be given a level and the random encounters would be plus or minus some amount of that level. If the Frog Marches are level 3, then I'd have encounters that ranged from 5-1 inside them. When the first level PCs encounter a level 4 encounter in the Frog Marches, they might think better then to continue exploring them.

I did something very similar, but for a different reason. I wanted to motivate the players to want to build their own safe-havens, towers, keeps, etc....

So I made adventurers unwelcome most places. Easy to do.

Then I made travelling in the wilderness something that would, eventually, put you down one Healing Surge.

Trying to push the players in a 4E game to become self-motivated, critical for a sandbox game is...well, in retrospect, I'd probably not bother next time and just run something linear.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I guess I just don't grasp how sandbox is supposed to work. To me the biggest issue with sandbox in 4e would be the fact that 4e is designed with an "end game" in mind - epic destinies and all that.

Can you explain the problem as you see it?

The usual perceived problem with Epic is that the PCs outgrow the sandbox, so the GM needs another, bigger sandbox, not the epic destinies. After all it's the players who choose their epic destinies. I'd think it was a bigger problem in a linear campaign, having to take time off the track to ensure each PC has their epic destiny fulfilled. With a sandbox it's up to the PC to fulfll their destiny, like in the old Masters rules on Immortal ascension.
 

Yeah, I don't think the 'epic' issue is all that big an impact on the sandbox. Any more than paragon paths or prestige classes, anyhow.
 

Pre-D&D4, D&D was built on the Conan model, which was self-motivation, perfect for sandbox play. Heroes are active, which is necessary for sandbox play.

D&D4 focuses more on heroic characters, and heroic characters are reactive. Terrible for sandbox play.
Good point. Money is a major driving force in OD&D/1e, because it gives xp, and 3e because it can be spent on magic items.

In 2e however, which is intended to be more like LotR than Conan, money is no longer a motivator. It was also quite common in 3e games for DMs not to allow magic item trade, tho it is the default. I believe 4e also assumes magic item trade, but, as you say, magic items are pretty poor fare now.

I was considering introducing magic items that have powerful non-combat or limited use effects in 4e, such as building a castle or a one-shot long range teleport, or killing one single foe instantly, but I haven't given it much thought yet.
 

Can you explain the problem as you see it?

The usual perceived problem with Epic is that the PCs outgrow the sandbox, so the GM needs another, bigger sandbox, not the epic destinies. After all it's the players who choose their epic destinies. I'd think it was a bigger problem in a linear campaign, having to take time off the track to ensure each PC has their epic destiny fulfilled. With a sandbox it's up to the PC to fulfll their destiny, like in the old Masters rules on Immortal ascension.

Well I don't think its a huge issue. I suppose to me its just the matter of setting up the epic destiny might be a challenge. But like you said it can be a challenge in a linear campaign. Seeing it from the angle you pain here, I suppose it's not really much of a problem at all :)
 

An unholy blend of old and new! Nice ideas, LostSoul.

PCs begin with two Quests: a Goal, "retirement level" one that can trigger often (I need to do some work on this), and a specific Quest that the player selects based on the setting. The Quest's level is based on the level of the hex where the Quest takes place.
I particularly like this one. I've been looking for some way to mechanically describe PC motivation (as well as relationship with the other PCs) and also to reward the players for completing quests, rather than for killin' and lootin', but I hadn't decided who determines the quests, players or DM.
 

I particularly like this one. I've been looking for some way to mechanically describe PC motivation (as well as relationship with the other PCs) and also to reward the players for completing quests, rather than for killin' and lootin', but I hadn't decided who determines the quests, players or DM.

When I ran my 4e campaign I started off on Night 1 by giving the various players each a note card with a "quest objective" on it that was tied into the backstory they'd already come up with. I also told them that if they later accepted quests from NPC's that I'd give them cards with those on them, or if they wanted to impose quests upon themselves then I'd write them up a card for that as well. When they completed a quest they'd hand me the card back. It helped keep things organized.

My typical reward for completing quests was that I'd give everybody in the party an Action Point. There were sometimes additional rewards that rose out of the story but those were on a case by case basis, taking into consideration whatever made sense for that quest in particular.
 

Very good point, doing the latter works well, and it's a pity that 4e does not include a mechanism to do the former. If you turn a Level+8 Standard into a Level+4 Elite, the doubling of hp means it's still a grindy combat.

Hmm. It sounds like the trick may be to turn the L+8 Standard into a L+4 Elite, including increase in damage output, but then half the hp (and award 2/3 of Elite XP). This ought to work pretty well, although it's still a fair bit of work, eg the Monster Builder doesn't increase damage output when you Eliteify critters AFAICR.

Thanks though, this is useful advice.

I have MM3. Is there a handy worksheet or something to help me MM3-ise the MM1-2 monsters?

What would be ideal would be for the DDI Monster Builder to have a button to MM3-ise the older monsters. I don't have a current DDI subscription - is there anything like that in the current version of the Monster Builder?

You can get the errata for free from wizards site. They posted the chart there or somewhere for free. I have used the updated MB and I have to say it is really slick. Worth the 1 month sub to get the updates. Every attack now has the following settings:
  • Type: Normal (-) or Limited Use (+75%)
  • Average Damage: (this is the L+8 value)
  • Dice Sides: You can of course pick 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12 for how random you want their damage to be
  • Modifier: Low (-25%), Medium (-), and High (+25%)
The first thing I noticed about all the MM1 creatures I've looked at is that their Modifiers are all set to "Low" (disclaimer here that I didn't look at more than 10). I opened a copy of the Goblin Warrior from MM1 (awesome new filter tools to filter by source and other things). First I changed his modifier to "Normal" then clicked the fancy "reset" button next to his average damage and suddenly it said he does 9 average damage (L+8). His damage went from d8 + 2 to d8 + 5. My guess is that I could edit any creature from MM1 up to standards in about 2-3 minutes or less. Just edit each attack power.

About elites. Elites don't do more damage on a single swing, but instead they usually get an at-will power that let's them swing twice using their normal attack on their turn. This keeps them in line with all other creatures since an elite can make an OA for each PC so that shouldn't be double damage just because it's an elite. Also, elites generally do more damage over their lifetime because they have the same damage output as a single standard creature, but have double HPs and so stay standing longer than 2 standard creatures and continue to do full damage where with 2 standard creatures 1 of them would drop when the elite would only be bloodied.

About grind. For sandbox play you can keep the built in scaling by making your creatures whatever level you want them to be, then just manually adjust their defenses so they can be hit (a quick monster level - PC level as penalty should do EX: Level 10 creature vs level 2 PCs would be -8 on all defenses). They'll do more damage per swing as well as hit more often (from +1/2 level), and have tons more HPs. If they can't figure out they're over matched they'll be dead. Soliders can be just a bit tougher to hit if you use that. You can of course do the same thing in reverse for lower level monsters by increasing defenses.
 

Good point. Money is a major driving force in OD&D/1e, because it gives xp, and 3e because it can be spent on magic items.

In 2e however, which is intended to be more like LotR than Conan, money is no longer a motivator. It was also quite common in 3e games for DMs not to allow magic item trade, tho it is the default. I believe 4e also assumes magic item trade, but, as you say, magic items are pretty poor fare now.

I was considering introducing magic items that have powerful non-combat or limited use effects in 4e, such as building a castle or a one-shot long range teleport, or killing one single foe instantly, but I haven't given it much thought yet.

I've been thinking about the same thing, on and off.

The goal of the designers was to remove those situations where battles were WILDLY unpredictable because the magic items people were carrying around were a: random and B: of highly variant power-levels. A Stone of Earth Elemental Control or whatever it was called, could completely change the entire nature of a combat.

The 4E designers thought that was a bad idea, and I tend to agree. But I think they went too far away, I think there has to be a middle ground.

So something that relies more on One Use items, wildly powerful, desirable, something people would quest for, purely out of "enlightened self interest," but that once used, are gone, seems like a profitable place to start looking for a solution.
 

My default setting has always been a sandbox since the earliest days and it seems to work just fine in 4e. I've fiddled around a bit with the best way to make things work, but basically the approach is pretty much the same as I used in 2e.

Every area is designated with a level. I generally just tend to use 1, 6, 11, 15, etc as it isn't profitable to get less coarse than that. Areas can be any size. Some are large, some are small, all of them are cohesive and reasonably well bounded. Regions far from the focus of the action tend to be large and scantily detailed but serve as destinations for quests etc. The areas near the focus obviously are a lot more detailed and can be quite small, maybe even a specific ruin or something like that.

Every area has lore. Usually it is best to have 2 sources of lore for each one. The more important and obvious areas are usually pretty easy to find lore for and it generally makes it pretty clear what level of area it is. More specific lore may exist as well if the PCs want to go find it. Most areas also have plot hooks. This means it is pretty hard for the players to just blunder into things. Often if they come on/enter an area they can get at least some idea of what to expect there, or they can go do some research etc and find out. Unless they're pig-headed about it they will rarely enter areas outside their competency.

I have found that 4e is no worse than any other edition as far as providing hooks and motivations. Magic items aren't technically quite as huge a motivation perhaps as they were in AD&D, but really aren't that much less either. Some areas might be associated with artifacts, others are the likely (and usually only) sources of specific valuable items like say a Staff of Ruin or Iron Armbands of Power. Most players like having those things and will certainly go after them, especially when they really can't get them elsewhere. Perhaps they can make lower level versions, but the group rarely has enough treasure to do a lot of crafting.

As far as higher level challenges being potentially grindy there are a few ways to avoid that. One is to generally have a few lower level challenges in the area that they'll run into first. Once the party finds the DOORMAN of the Giant Castle to be a significant challenge they're not too likely to blunder on in further and run into the Giant himself. If they do, then you really just have to make it an interesting encounter with fun terrain etc. Provide ways to defeat monsters without grinding through all their hit points every time, or else make it perfectly clear that they might want to escape. If they go after a lot higher level area I've found 4e is a lot more likely to let you actually get away than AD&D was. At least you have a buffer of hit points and surges to keep you up long enough to think about it. In AD&D you were usually dead by the time you realized you were totally outclassed, except the poor fighter, who had pretty close to no way to exit stage left...

I've never had the 15 minute adventuring day problem except in one dungeon crawl area. It is true that PCs may decide to hole up after a random encounter, but even a modicum of logic and story generally kills that option in fixed encounter areas. If the PCs stir up the orc lair they darn well better teach the orcs to leave them alone or clean them out entirely because the nearby village is going to be down in flames if they don't! If you start something, you pretty much want to finish it and trouble will find you fast if you don't. Anyway there are plenty of other tried and true ways to lead parties on, just don't overuse one of them too much.

Although I do have some mini-areas that are just a couple of encounters ALMOST all major locations have plot significance. It is up to the players if they want to engage in a particular plot but the world isn't going to just sit still for them, so they need to make up their minds and get on with it in most cases.

As far as skill checks go, just determine from the area the PCs are in what makes sense. That doesn't handle everything, but my approach is that there's no point in making easy mundane checks anyway in most situations. When I establish the difficulty of an action I'll note it, so i know that climbing trees is a moderate level 1 Athletics check usually. Maybe in a higher level area there may be bigger trees, but generally there will be cliffs or whatever that are more interesting for those PCs to climb. It mostly works out fine.

As someone noted above 4e does let you restrict movement a lot more easily than AD&D did, so you can keep areas out of general circulation for lower level characters.

I agree that PoL works GREAT for a sandbox and not surprisingly I've always used a PoL type of setting. It makes it much easier to carry threat levels on up to high levels. Anything can be out there, and the fact that it hasn't YET overrun the local point of light doesn't mean it won't be an epic threat tomorrow.
 

Remove ads

Top