History, Mythology, Art and RPGs

[Galloglaich]

That is the trouble with some real-life professions, they don't lend themselves easily to the "roving adventurer" dynamic typical of games - and few people want to play an RPG where your character gets up in the morning, goes to work in the store/lab/mill does his work and then heads home.

Ah... you know that kind of statement is like putting a red flag in front of a bull in this thread right?

I think the above statement is true only if you are looking at a DnD or RPG version of 'real life professions' as opposed to the actual historical one.

Tell me about it. The most beneficial (realistic) thing that I can come up with is the ability to come create Liquid/Greek Fire, and use them as Grenades at level 6 (because I'd like to try and run E6 as long as I can get my player to agree with it). The upside to having a not so battle related PC class is that it encourages more RPing, and my group says they want to do that, so it might work out,

Yeah... I'm not sure about that. I think alchemists could be very powerful. If for example, you handled acids realistically for example. Al Jebir, 'The Alchemist' and Zakariya al-Razi discovered Nitric, Hydrochloric and Sulfuric acid in the 9th Century AD, and the distilation of alcohol and kerosine.

Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These chemicals were known and perfected as 'aqua regia' and 'aqua fortis' etc. during the Middle Ages in Italy when his work (and that of other Arab and Persian alchemists) was discovered. In 'real-life' acid is not only a very formidable weapon, but it can be used for other very useful things like damaging locks, destroying various things.

Distilled Spirits / Alcohol is another extremely useful substance which, if handled realistically, could be of immense value. I don't have to tell you how dangerous kerosine can be in the wrong hands.

Gunpowder was another valuable substance "invented" by medieval Alchemists (though it was already known in China), Roger Bacon published the formula in his 'Opus Magus' in the 1267 AD. He also outlines the uses of lenses, which again, I probably don't have to explain the tactical value of magnifying glasses, spy glasses etc. to an adventurer.

Opus Majus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Drugs, can be very potent. Opium, hallucinogenics, and medicine all have their various uses. A dragon which ate a sheep say, that was infused with opium, would probably be sleeping for a long time. I don't even want to think about a Dragon which has been dosed with cylocibin cubensis or ergot (essentially LSD) or belladonna.

And that is just if you use the realistic. You don't have to have your alchemist stick to the real world. Surviving alchemical documents include formulae for everything from summoning scorpions to raising the dead to creating artificial life. The alchemical science of 'Takwin', which the Arab alchemists were obsessed with, dealt all to do with the creation of artificial lives:

"Jābir's alchemical investigations ostensibly revolved around the ultimate goal of takwin — the artificial creation of life. The Book of Stones includes several recipes for creating creatures such as scorpions, snakes, and even humans in a laboratory environment, which are subject to the control of their creator. What Jābir meant by these recipes is unknown."

JÄbir ibn HayyÄn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Takwin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The most famous case of this in Europe was the Marahval of Prague in the Renaissance,

Judah Loew ben Bezalel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Golem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It doesn't matter if these things actually existed or not, but people then actually believed them and the stories are much more elaborate and rich than anything anybody comes up with in gaming or RPG books.

And this is just scratching the surface. The European alchemists of the Renaissance got into some really weird , and this went on for centuries. Sir Issac Newton carried out a magical war against one of his rivals. I don't have time to get into all of it here but it's far out stuff.

Anyway the bottom line is, I think there is plenty of room for a really cool alchemist class, I'd like to make one for the codex though I'm swamped with other stuff. I'm probably going to include sort of a small prototype of one in my new canned adventure I'm working on right now.

You can 'skip ahead to the good parts' the same way you 'skip ahead' with Wizards when they are studying spells and etc., but I don't even think that is necessary. All this stuff is plenty interesting if you dig deep enough.

G.

 

[Ugulu the Barbarian]

Yeah... I'm not sure about that. I think alchemists could be very powerful. If for example, you handled acids realistically for example. Al Jebir, 'The Alchemist' and Zakariya al-Razi discovered Nitric, Hydrochloric and Sulfuric acid in the 9th Century AD, and the distilation of alcohol and kerosine.

Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These chemicals were known and perfected as 'aqua regia' and 'aqua fortis' etc. during the Middle Ages in Italy when his work (and that of other Arab and Persian alchemists) was discovered. In 'real-life' acid is not only a very formidable weapon, but it can be used for other very useful things like damaging locks, destroying various things.

Distilled Spirits / Alcohol is another extremely useful substance which, if handled realistically, could be of immense value. I don't have to tell you how dangerous kerosine can be in the wrong hands.

Gunpowder was another valuable substance "invented" by medieval Alchemists (though it was already known in China), Roger Bacon published the formula in his 'Opus Magus' in the 1267 AD. He also outlines the uses of lenses, which again, I probably don't have to explain the tactical value of magnifying glasses, spy glasses etc. to an adventurer.

Opus Majus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Drugs, can be very potent. Opium, hallucinogenics, and medicine all have their various uses. A dragon which ate a sheep say, that was infused with opium, would probably be sleeping for a long time. I don't even want to think about a Dragon which has been dosed with cylocibin cubensis or ergot (essentially LSD) or belladonna.

And that is just if you use the realistic. You don't have to have your alchemist stick to the real world. Surviving alchemical documents include formulae for everything from summoning scorpions to raising the dead to creating artificial life. The alchemical science of 'Takwin', which the Arab alchemists were obsessed with, dealt all to do with the creation of artificial lives:

"Jābir's alchemical investigations ostensibly revolved around the ultimate goal of takwin — the artificial creation of life. The Book of Stones includes several recipes for creating creatures such as scorpions, snakes, and even humans in a laboratory environment, which are subject to the control of their creator. What Jābir meant by these recipes is unknown."

JÄbir ibn HayyÄn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Takwin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The most famous case of this in Europe was the Marahval of Prague in the Renaissance,

Judah Loew ben Bezalel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Golem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It doesn't matter if these things actually existed or not, but people then actually believed them and the stories are much more elaborate and rich than anything anybody comes up with in gaming or RPG books.

And this is just scratching the surface. The European alchemists of the Renaissance got into some really weird , and this went on for centuries. Sir Issac Newton carried out a magical war against one of his rivals. I don't have time to get into all of it here but it's far out stuff.

Anyway the bottom line is, I think there is plenty of room for a really cool alchemist class, I'd like to make one for the codex though I'm swamped with other stuff. I'm probably going to include sort of a small prototype of one in my new canned adventure I'm working on right now.

You can 'skip ahead to the good parts' the same way you 'skip ahead' with Wizards when they are studying spells and etc., but I don't even think that is necessary. All this stuff is plenty interesting if you dig deep enough.

G.

I thank you for the advice. The thing about Alchemists doing magical stuff is that the good ones (as I perceive it) realized that magic wasn't real, and so science became the answer. In a realistic/historic D&D game, this could go 1 of 2 ways as I see it. The 1st is that yes, they could at 20th level create a Golem in a world with some magic. While the 2nd is they create things that seem magical to the eye. I want to try an run a low magic E6 game, and so far, I have some idea as to the "potions" that Alchemists could create.

aqua regia (highly corrosive/fast), potash (cleansing agent), kerosene (lubricant/lightable), tar (cure diseases/sticky), aetherolea (calming), acetic acid (corrosive), gunpowder (duh), dissolved talc (fire proof cream), liquid fire (weapon), ethanol (distilled alcohol) (causes vomiting), silly putty (IDK, but it could be made (in theory)), opium (healing/sleeping agent), ergot (temporary insanity), rusting agent, water proofing agent, glow in the dark agent.


If I should go ahead and stop filling your thread with this stuff, and make my own, let me know.

 

[El Mahdi]

...I think alchemists could be very powerful. If for example, you handled acids realistically for example. Al Jebir, 'The Alchemist' and Zakariya al-Razi discovered Nitric, Hydrochloric and Sulfuric acid in the 9th Century AD, and the distilation of alcohol and kerosine.

These chemicals were known and perfected as 'aqua regia' and 'aqua fortis' etc. during the Middle Ages in Italy when his work (and that of other Arab and Persian alchemists) was discovered. In 'real-life' acid is not only a very formidable weapon, but it can be used for other very useful things like damaging locks, destroying various things.

Distilled Spirits / Alcohol is another extremely useful substance which, if handled realistically, could be of immense value. I don't have to tell you how dangerous kerosine can be in the wrong hands...

It's interesting you'd mention this stuff. There's a character in the book The_Chalice_and_the_Blade, by Glenna McReynolds that is exactly like that. He's a Dane in the service of a Norman Lord in the Welsh Marches that convinces people he's a sorcerer by using "alchemical" knowledge he aquired while on Crusade. He specifically uses some of the things you mentioned. The book is equal part romance novel as much as it is medieval fantasy, but it's very well researched in Muslim Alchemy and Welsh Mythology. The Danish character would make an awesome model for a D&D Alchemist character.

 

[Galloglaich]

I thank you for the advice. The thing about Alchemists doing magical stuff is that the good ones (as I perceive it) realized that magic wasn't real, and so science became the answer.

You would think. But in reality that was not apparently the case. Many of the top 'scientists' ancient times believed wholeheartedly in Magic of all different types. All of them were astrologers. Al Razi and Al Jebir believed they could summon things. Sir Issac Newton was an out and out Wizard who conducted magical duels. This is one of the things I find so interesting about them. It kind of makes you wonder... A lot of this actually springs from their interest in numerology and the very real science of mnemonics, which is where a lot of the European scholars got in trouble with the Church, like Giodorno Bruno.

In a realistic/historic D&D game, this could go 1 of 2 ways as I see it. The 1st is that yes, they could at 20th level create a Golem in a world with some magic. While the 2nd is they create things that seem magical to the eye. I want to try an run a low magic E6 game, and so far, I have some idea as to the "potions" that Alchemists could create.

aqua regia (highly corrosive/fast), potash (cleansing agent), kerosene (lubricant/lightable), tar (cure diseases/sticky), aetherolea (calming), acetic acid (corrosive), gunpowder (duh), dissolved talc (fire proof cream), liquid fire (weapon), ethanol (distilled alcohol) (causes vomiting), silly putty (IDK, but it could be made (in theory)), opium (healing/sleeping agent), ergot (temporary insanity), rusting agent, water proofing agent, glow in the dark agent.


If I should go ahead and stop filling your thread with this stuff, and make my own, let me know.

No these are fantastic! I hadn't thought of about half of those. Can I use this?

G.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Actually, I'd LOVE to see a thread dedicated to RW alchemy started by those who know the stuff. Natural scientist/alchemist PCs in fantasy campaigns are among my favorite archetypes.

Not that the info doesn't belong here, per se, but just that it would probably help a lot more people if it weren't buried in this massive thread, and given the deeper treatment it fully deserves.

So...FORK AWAY, pal!

 

[Ugulu the Barbarian]

You would think. But in reality that was not apparently the case. Many of the top 'scientists' ancient times believed wholeheartedly in Magic of all different types. All of them were astrologers. Al Razi and Al Jebir believed they could summon things. Sir Issac Newton was an out and out Wizard who conducted magical duels. This is one of the things I find so interesting about them. It kind of makes you wonder... A lot of this actually springs from their interest in numerology and the very real science of mnemonics, which is where a lot of the European scholars got in trouble with the Church, like Giodorno Bruno.



No these are fantastic! I hadn't thought of about half of those. Can I use this?

G.

Oh, no, I'd be obliged if you did. I just did some digging through Wikipedia. How did people homebrew with out the internet?

So...FORK AWAY, pal!

No to be, uhh, self-centered, but do you mean me, or G?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You seem to have the info- so go for it!

 

[El Mahdi]

You would think. But in reality that was not apparently the case. Many of the top 'scientists' ancient times believed wholeheartedly in Magic of all different types. All of them were astrologers. Al Razi and Al Jebir believed they could summon things. Sir Issac Newton was an out and out Wizard who conducted magical duels. This is one of the things I find so interesting about them. It kind of makes you wonder... A lot of this actually springs from their interest in numerology and the very real science of mnemonics, which is where a lot of the European scholars got in trouble with the Church, like Giodorno Bruno...

Absolutely. In fact, the reason why we call alcoholic beverages "spirits" is because when alchemists discovered that alcohol vapor would burn, but the vapor was invisible to them, they believed it was the "spirit" of the element that was burning. Even with the basically "scientific" manner in which they learned to make alcohol and other compounds, they still thought the elements had mystical properties.


Also, somebody else just started a thread about running an alchemy campaign: Adventures with an alchemy theme.

 

[Ugulu the Barbarian]

Im going to sound like an idiot, but ... How do I fork a thread? :|

 

[El Mahdi]

Im going to sound like an idiot, but ... How do I fork a thread? :|

If I'm wrong, someone please correct me...

I believe all you do is go to the parent forum page (like General RPG Discussion), or the new forum you want the thread in, and click the New_Thread button (up at the top of the thread list, above the stickies).

In the title for your new thread put something like: Real World Alchemy - Forked from: History, Mythology, Art and RPG's. (However, there is a limit to how many characters you can use for the title.)

Then in the OP of your new thread (Original Post, or Post #1, the post you're writing when you make the new thread), cut and paste the name of the thread you're forking from (i.e. - Forked from: History, Mythology, Art and RPGs). Then write your post (i.e.: "This thread is for discussing Real World Alchemy and how to use it in RPG's. Here's some links to get it started....")

Then in the thread you forked from, make a new post and say "Forked thread to (cut and past name of new thread here)"


...or something like that...