History, Mythology, Art and RPGs

[Jack7]

Some of the later manuals had Latin editions, most were written in the Vernacular in at least one edition, but Latin was something of the universal language of the time so could cross borders more easily.

You know, I hadn't thought of that but it makes a lot of sense as a "smuggler's language."

Say you develop a fighting guild with good techniques in Venice, and that you want to keep such techniques and practices (maybe even the fact that such a Guild exists there - after all surprise is almost always the best offense) a secret, but German agents are curious to know what the Italians know, then just pay to have the text copied into Latin. Copy the illustrations with corresponding page notations in another book, smuggle that to a monastery in Germany (or wherever the target locale is) then have your monks (who read and write the same static church Latin as any other Catholic church in Christendom) then retranslate it into German, match up the illustrations, and you've got your own copy of the book.

Of course if it can be done and there is little security involved then you just have one of your agents pay for the original and then have a translator do it once in-country. But if it's in Church Latin then the work can be smuggled anywhere and easily retranslated by monks and scribes for a nominal fee (or perhaps favor to the monetary or parish) anywhere in Europe.

It would be hard to keep even militarily proprietary techniques secure from Church Latin. Because any church or monastery in Christendom (Latin Christendom anyways) can translate any material so written.

Good observation.

It makes me wonder if any manuals of this type might be wandering about in code somewhere.

To prevent Latin from making all such manuals "Open Books."

Yeah quite a bit of the old fencing culture, perhaps surprisingly, was associated directly with the Church or Monks, such as the famous 14th Century I.33 or Walpurgis manuscript, which was written in a Monastery and depicts two Monks and a mysterious woman practicing fencing. I think of it somewhat the same way as how a lot of good beer and liquor was and is still made in Monasteries. Those fellows had to do more with their time than just pray I guess.

A lot of the more isolated monasteries (really rural instead of near large population centers) would have to be able to protect themselves from bands of raiders and bandits, small groups of foreign invaders and skirmishers, and even local nobles who went rogue.

No one could reach them in time if a determined party decided to raid and kill so they'd have to protect themselves if absolteutly necessary. It might be thought of as a distasteful but necessary evil.

So they would also have a personal and group interest in such manuals for self-defense when needed. And I can't help but wonder if on occasion they didn't either covertly instruct female family members, lovers, or even noble women (maybe a husband wants his wife or daughter to know how to defend herself while he's away, but societal pressures prevent open arms instruction, pay a monastery to secretly teach some females self-defense) in such arts.

Of course the illustration could have been of someone in disguise, or even a sort of illustrative code, showing that this person was playing the "female part" in the armed encounter. Could represent any number of things.

Well, I've got most of the links secured and listed in my broswers now. So I'm off to bed. I'll explore them in detail later on.

 

[Galloglaich]

]If you gave players a few cleverly wrought tools, on the same level of abstraction as the rules they use already but based on what a fight is really like, they could use these to make the 'game within the game' of combat a more fun and meaningful part of the overall experience. Done right this could be the solid foundation of many different styles of gaming done in all different directions, including your shooting flames or whatever.

I'll believe it when I see it..

Over a year after the Codex was released and six positive reviews later, I believe I have proven it was possible.

G.

 

[Galloglaich]

Ah, now you are talking some interesting stuff!

You know, I hadn't thought of that but it makes a lot of sense as a "smuggler's language."

Say you develop a fighting guild with good techniques in Venice,

That sounds like a pretty good adventure hook getting going right there I could definitely see a scenario like this happen back "in the day", with a couple of minor caveats.

It would be hard to keep even militarily proprietary techniques secure from Church Latin. Because any church or monastery in Christendom (Latin Christendom anyways) can translate any material so written.

Yes or any decent sized church, or almost any University... most educated people in fact were taught Latin in this period I believe. Like I said, Latin was the international language of Europe in this period, just as the Church was the international administrator, at least until the Reformation.

Anyway you bring up some fascinating points, I hope you will forgive me if I take this and run with it a little, it's a good opportunity to explore this (to me) fascinating time and place.

A scenario of Germany spying on Italy per se, might be a little unlikely, if only because neither Germany or Italy existed as such in this period. Northern Italy circa 1300 - 1600 was a series of powerful independent city-states plus the secular state (and Army) of the Vatican. The big players were Venice, (which had the most powerful navy in the Med, possibly the World), Milan, then as now the fashion center of Europe (except they were making their most popular designs in iron) Florence, Pisa, Genoa, Brescia, Bologna and Rome and the Papal States. Southern Italy was the property at various times of the Normans, the Arabs, the Spanish, etc.

This was an interesting period, different from what most people think of for the Middle Ages. The Renaissance was in full swing in Italy by 1400 AD (it would reach Germany in another 30 or 40 years, it didn't get to France or England for nearly a Century) art and arcitecture were blooming, most city-dwelling people in Northern Italy were pretty well educated, 1/3 of the population was estimated to be literate.

Italian city-states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Italian cities won independance from the HRE as early as the rather amazing Battle of Legano in 1167 when, allied with the pope, the Lombard League (a group of 20 cities) defeated the formidable German Emperor Frederick Barbarosa.

Lombard League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Battle of Legnano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Greater Germany" if you will was the Holy Roman Empire, which some people like to point out was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. It was a fairly loose amalgum of Princely states, ruled by the so-called electors (powerful barons and dukes), plus powerful free cities like in Italy (particularly the Hanseatic towns in the north such as Hamburg, Cologne, Liepzig, Danzig, Frankfurt etc.) which were designated as 'Imperial Free Cities' and made their own laws, effectively independent or rebel zones like Switzerland (cities like Berne and Basel), Holland / the Low Countries (Amsterdam, Antwerp, Brussles etc.), Bohemia (Prague) etc., wild frontiers like Poland, Hungary, and the Balkans (threatened by the ominous Turk), and a certain amount of territory genuinely under the control of the Emperor, which varied depending on which family was ascendant at any given moment.

It's also worth noting that the Martial Arts in these Fechtbucher, were not so much military secrets (though they had some military value) they were more for individual combat. The property of Martial arts schools, in fact we know for certain that the two most prominent martial arts schools of Renaissance Germany, the Marxbruder of Frankfurt and the Federfechter of Prague, were actually fierce rivals. I could imagine a cool DnD game where you had kind of a film noire or Western vibe featuring rival fencing schools, almost exactly like you see in your better Samurai films from the 60's.

That said, there could have easily also been more serious rivalries between individual lords, or groups or factions of lords, and / or various cities. Florence and Milan were constant rivals for example and always at war. The Emperor and the Pope were always scheming, and the King of France was known to stray into Italy on a military adventure now and then. More strategic value than martial arts manuals would be books on siege warfare, artillery or say, pike drill. The most popular manual in this period was an old Roman siege warfare book called De Re Militari, by Vegetius.

De Re Militari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But that said, individual martial arts were still important. Skill in individual combat was critical for knights, men at arms and Chevaliers, was also emphasized by the Swiss and a swordsman certified by one of the fencing guilds like the Marxbruder or the Federfechter could draw double pay in a Lansknecht or Condottieri company, as a so called "Dopplesoldner". This was one of the reasons competition was so fierce among the fencing schools. There was money in it.

Good observation.

It makes me wonder if any manuals of this type might be wandering about in code somewhere.

To prevent Latin from making all such manuals "Open Books."

Very good point.

Military secrets were encrypted in this era, just like today. There was a lively culture of encryption of documents back then almost like how all important documents are encrypted on the internet. Cyphers in the Renaissance were incredibly sophisticated, I have seen some Grimoires which had cyphers three or even four layers deep, if you can imagine that. So a book on etiquette is, when de-cyphered, actually a book on astrology, which, if de-cyphered, is actually a book on mnemonics, which if de-cyphered, is a book on strait up black magic. Often parts of books would be encrypted this way, or sometimes a whole book. Read up on some of Giodorno Bruno or John Dee's works for example.

To aid them in this kind of work, they might use an ingenius invention like the cypher wheel.

CypherWheel-Home

See the neat thing about the Renaissance was that there were geniuses running around practically everywhere...

Leon is an exceptional example, in fact he definitely belongs on my "Dilbert in the Dungeon" list, he was the classic example of the true Renaissance Man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Battista_Alberti

A lot of the more isolated monasteries (really rural instead of near large population centers) would have to be able to protect themselves from bands of raiders and bandits, small groups of foreign invaders and skirmishers, and even local nobles who went rogue.

Of course, it was quite common. Robber - knights, bandits, pirates, steppe raiders etc. were a major problem in many parts of the HRE.

No one could reach them in time if a determined party decided to raid and kill so they'd have to protect themselves if absolteutly necessary. It might be thought of as a distasteful but necessary evil.

They may not have thought it was evil at all. Remember there were many military orders in this period, martial arts practiced in Monasteries is nothing new, think of the Far-East, and all those Samurai movies again

In fact sometimes the Monks themselves were the aggressors. Abbots were often lords in every sense.

So they would also have a personal and group interest in such manuals for self-defense when needed. And I can't help but wonder if on occasion they didn't either covertly instruct female family members, lovers, or even noble women (maybe a husband wants his wife or daughter to know how to defend herself while he's away, but societal pressures prevent open arms instruction, pay a monastery to secretly teach some females self-defense) in such arts.

Again, of course, there are many documented cases of this, both on an innocent and not - so - innnocent level, both on a large and small scale.

Of course the illustration could have been of someone in disguise, or even a sort of illustrative code, showing that this person was playing the "female part" in the armed encounter. Could represent any number of things.

This is hotly debated in the HEMA community, but the text does specifically refer to her as a Woman. She appears only in certain parts of the text, but the I.33 has been associated with St. Walpurgia.

I suspect it was just a girl they were hanging around with. Could have been somebodies sister or somebodies daughter, or it could have been somebodies girlfriend, stranger things have happened. Nothing particularly sinister about it. As you can see in this thread women practicing martial arts and fighting etc. was not exactly unheard of in Medieval Europe.


G.

 

[Jack7]

Anyway you bring up some fascinating points, I hope you will forgive me if I take this and run with it a little, it's a good opportunity to explore this (to me) fascinating time and place.

By all means. That's how things develop and improve.

A scenario of Germany spying on Italy per se, might be a little unlikely, if only because neither Germany or Italy existed as such in this period. Northern Italy circa 1300 - 1600 was a series of powerful independent city-states plus the secular state (and Army) of the Vatican. The big players were Venice, (which had the most powerful navy in the Med, possibly the World), Milan, then as now the fashion center of Europe (except they were making their most popular designs in iron) Florence, Pisa, Genoa, Brescia, Bologna and Rome and the Papal States. Southern Italy was the property at various times of the Normans, the Arabs, the Spanish, etc.

No, you're right. In saying Germany I meant specifically the Holy Roman Empire, but then again I was just kinda generalizing in making those suggestions. For purposes of brevity.

See the neat thing about the Renaissance was that there were geniuses running around practically everywhere...

I've recently been listening to another series of lectures on the Medieval Era, and it occurred to me that the Medieval period, leading up to and including the Renaissance (the real beginning of the Modern Era) was full of geniuses and innovation, but the real trouble was lack of communications, and methods of mass production (and if you think about it, effective communications are really necessary for the best methods of mass production to occur and operate).

In ancient Rome you had the road system, and other means of communication (including their version of the Pony Express mail system) that were very effective and fast, and because of the Pax Romana and the advantages of a more or less untied empire, innovation could be quickly spread (relatively speaking) throughout the empire. In the Medieval era, with nationalism spreading (not in the modern sense, but in the kingdom/small empire/territorial sense), poor communications, bad roads, and a sort of sectarian mindset, no matter how brilliant someone was, their achievements and knowledge remained a basically proprietary and secluded affair. Meaning unlike in the empire, unlike in the later Renaissance, and unlike (especially our modern world, with electronic and high tech - at least to us, I'm sure our decedents will look upon our technology as primitive enough - based communications) the present day, genius, and the implication of the works of that genius were slow to spread.

Couple that with no real means of mass production, compared to us, or even the Romans, and innovation was relatively hamstrung, no matter how good the nature of the ideas that were be produced. In other words good ideas were being produced, but the methods of their communication and application were hampered or crippled by other factors.

(As a little sidenote, my dad once asked me why there were no Einsteins running around now, like back in the early part of the century. He said this to me maybe in the late Sixties or early Seventies. I said because geniuses were so rare. And he said he didn't think so. He said it was because in the modern world, the way it operates and with the size of the population, that there are now so many that almost none really stand out anymore. He said a commodity is only as valuable as how rare it is. I never forgot that as he predicted the fall of the Soviet Union about 15 to 20 years before it actually happened.)

They may not have thought it was evil at all. Remember there were many military orders in this period, martial arts practiced in Monasteries is nothing new, think of the Far-East, and all those Samurai movies again

I've often wondered, given the situation with Benedict (not the current Pope, but the Saint and founder of monastic orders in the West), and some of the later founders of monastic orders, if the Byzantine efforts at monasticism (and their corresponding early idea of the Warrior-Monk) did not in fact have a far lager influence on Western monasticism than previously thought. I mean I know Benedict specifically rebelled against the idea of too strenuous and harsh ascetic practices, but that doesn't mean he would have abandoned all Eastern ideals of monastic life or obviously he wouldn't have founded Western monasteries based on Eastern models. I think he and some of the other order founders though may have been far more influenced by the Byzantine monasteries and hermitages, including the idea of monasteries being able to defend themselves and defend the Empire (in the West this would have meant the area in which they operated, under whatever flag or banner) if necessary, than is commonly considered.

I wrote one of my dissertations in college on early missionary movements in Christianity and Buddhism. It turns out that many of the very earliest efforts at missionary movements in Christianity were to the East (before, and including Paul) and Africa and were very successful for a time. Only later on did efforts turn to Rome. With Buddhism on the other hand, before going towards China the Buddhists headed West. (As a matter of fact the most successful Chinese efforts were of Chinese going West, and studying Buddhism in and around India, then bringing it home themselves.)

So I've often wondered, in examining some of the monastic practices of the Byzantine Christians, and especially of their seminal works and practices (I'm re-reading the Philokalia right now) just how much Buddhism influenced Byzantine monasteries. Especially in regards to the idea of the ascetic practices, and in other ideas, such as Warrior-Monks (though that particular idea was, pragmatically speaking, relatively short lived as a real practice in the West and may have very well evolved prior to the commonly accepted Warrior Monk idea in the East - depends on how you define the idea exactly, and where you are talking about).

Of course there are large-scale and practical differences between Eastern Christian monasticism and Oriental Buddhist monasticism but there are also interesting similarities and overlaps.

Military secrets were encrypted in this era, just like today. There was a lively culture of encryption of documents back then almost like how all important documents are encrypted on the internet. Cyphers in the Renaissance were incredibly sophisticated, I have seen some Grimoires which had cyphers three or even four layers deep, if you can imagine that. So a book on etiquette is, when de-cyphered, actually a book on astrology, which, if de-cyphered, is actually a book on mnemonics, which if de-cyphered, is a book on strait up black magic. Often parts of books would be encrypted this way, or sometimes a whole book. Read up on some of Giodorno Bruno or John Dee's works for example.

To aid them in this kind of work, they might use an ingenius invention like the cypher wheel.

I'm familiar with them, as I occasionally do encoding/decoding, encrypting/de-crypting work for the military and/or law enforcement. As a matter of fact I've been working on an "Environmental Encoding" (encoding objects found in any given natural environment that can then be decoded or deciphered - though I'm using those terms only generally speaking, not technically speaking - through reverse means) project of my own for a few years now. (I got the idea while working on a project to decode graffiti left on the walls in Baghdad that was in effect leaving information in plain sight for terrorist and sectarian operators, so I decided that rather than just breaking their codes I'd also improve upon their techniques, turn it back upon them, and develop a new method of encoding the background environment. Not just their graffiti tagging or an enemy insurgent's own "cant," as might be said, but anything in the background I decided that would be effective to encode, encipher, or encrypt. Of course that would have not just military applications, but also technological, communicative, and espionage applications.)

That's why it struck me that any work that rendered specialized and effective combat techniques would have military value. Therefore would likely be encoded. As a matter of fact if I were a commander or ruler I would have insisted on it, had I known of such manuscripts and I would have gathered such material to create a covert or proprietary research library for my commanders. (Sort of like a multi-work Tacticon for my area of command.) This would be a big tactical and even strategic advantage when there was no gun-powder weapons, or when they were of limited effect or small in number. So I'm pretty sure that rulers somewhere, long dead now, had secret libraries field with such works for the training of their forces. (Though maybe only the best commanders and trainers would be privy to the books, the other soldiers would be trained by their superiors, who learned such techniques both through personal experience and training, and through reference to successful manuals.)

I've also been recently re-studying the Voynich manuscript, which I suspect does indeed contain multiple encoding, though not necessarily in the obvious way (see Environmental Encoding idea above) but that's off the subject.

Well, I was gonna say something else but my daughter walked in the office and interrupted me and I forgot it. Doesn't matter I've yakked way too long, and I need to get back to work. Pronto. But thanks for the references and ideas. Forgive the typos as I wrote fast and used Microsoft as my editor. And we all know what that leads to.

Anywho, very interesting and useful material and discussion.
It gave me some ideas for a new set of adventures set in my fantasy game world.

I'll work those up later.

See ya.

 

[Galloglaich]

In ancient Rome you had the road system, and other means of communication (including their version of the Pony Express mail system) that were very effective and fast, and because of the Pax Romana and the advantages of a more or less untied empire, innovation could be quickly spread (relatively speaking) throughout the empire.

I have to disagree with the lecturer, though this is a fairly common perception going back to the 19th Century. To me, by this logic you might think the Soviet Union would have been a hotbed of innovation, or that logically planned economies would thrive more than free markets.

Rome, for all their good roads, was increasingly moribund in the last two or three Centuries of the Empire. There was very little technical innovation of any kind. In fact you might say Augustus was both the first and last effective Emperor, competent ones followed but they were precious few and far between.

In the Meideval period, by this logic, you would think that the Renaissance would have begun in a country like France which had a strong Roman-like centralized government and relatively good infrastructure. But it didn't, it started in totally chaotic northern Italy, in the relatively democratic city-state of Florence precisely around 1380, spread throughout the Po Valley and then into the loosely controlled Holy Roman Empire, specifically into the large independent trading cities of the Hanseatic League. It didn't make it to the Centralized Kingdoms of France, Spain, or England until 1500, more than a Century after it started in Florence (and then with foriegn experts brought in by Kings from Italy and Germany and Flanders etc.).

The efficiency of centralized government and infrastructure seems to be contrasted with the inevitable corruption and stagnation of centralized power - and the chaos of decentralizatoin is contrasted with the innovation that comes from relative degree of freedom. Just as the Free market works better than a planned economy, comparatively free or open political strucutres seem to lead to all kinds of technical, artistic, and even military innovations (look at the Swiss or the Ancient Greeks)

Couple that with no real means of mass production, compared to us, or even the Romans, and innovation was relatively hamstrung, no matter how good the nature of the ideas that were be produced. In other words good ideas were being produced, but the methods of their communication and application were hampered or crippled by other factors.

Communication may have been an issue but they had mass production in Europe going back to the 11th Century, when the Cistercian monks spread the technology of the overwash water wheel and the wind-mill. By the Renaissance economic production and trade were thriving, in the 15th Century Milan alone was probably producing more armor than the entire Western Roman Empire was circa 300 - 400 AD.

I've often wondered, given the situation with Benedict (not the current Pope, but the Saint and founder of monastic orders in the West), and some of the later founders of monastic orders, if the Byzantine efforts at monasticism (and their corresponding early idea of the Warrior-Monk) did not in fact have a far lager influence on Western monasticism than previously thought.

This is a very interesting point, especially the Buddhist angle. I know the 'Gaelic' Monasteries in Ireland and the British isles in the early Medieval period were more organized more like the Orthodox model, and this wasn't changed until around the 12th Century IIRC.

St Walpurgia is an Irish Saint too I think, perhaps coincidence?

I'm familiar with them, as I occasionally do encoding/decoding, encrypting/de-crypting work for the military and/or law enforcement. As a matter of fact I've been working on an "Environmental Encoding" (encoding objects found in any given natural environment that can then be decoded or deciphered -

Very interesting, sounds like you know more about cyphers than I do. I think this is a really cool angle for RPGs, especially for your Call of Cthulhu type clues and hand-outs... maybe you could elaborate a little on some ways this can work. I'm also interested in 'cants' etc.

That's why it struck me that any work that rendered specialized and effective combat techniques would have military value.

Yes probably, but to a somewhat limited degree - rather like teaching knife fighting to modern Marines, they might do it mostly for morale, it has benefit but somewhat limited. Keep in mind warfare in this era was more about guns, pikes, and cannons than individual heroes contending in one on one duels.

We know most of the fechtbuchs were associated with civilians of the Burgher class, mostly for judicial combat, and with the fencing Guilds, which did have some military overlap. Almost all the manuals teach one on one fighting though.

But there is no doubt the Aristocrats had their own personal fighting systems which were taught in their own courts and castles, and there does appear to be some overlap with the Fechtbuchs, for example Ott Jud was a court martial arts (wrestling) instructor for a German count IIRC.

Anywho, very interesting and useful material and discussion.
It gave me some ideas for a new set of adventures set in my fantasy game world.

I'll work those up later.

See ya.

Right back at you man, fascinating discussoin. Later

G.

 

[Jack7]

I'm gonna leave some of the Roman stuff aside for lack of time and because I've recently come to the conclusion that's it not really productive to argue on the internet. Not that I think we'd necessarily be arguing, but a lot of what we've both mentioned depends very much on what exactly we variously mean by scale, what exact period we're speaking of, and whether we mean the Western Roman Empire or the Eastern Roman Empire. (I gotta admit that personally speaking I am biased in favor of the Eastern rather than the Western Empire, even if I don't specifically mention it when I'm talking. So I might be talking about the Western Empire, the Eastern empire, or both, unless I clarify. I do though find your method of communicating over the intent by embedding explanatory or expanding links into your writings to be an interesting method. I've motioned it to others as a potentially very useful method of "information compression" for using the internet. Illustration without having to illustrate or explain everything yourself in detail. Leave the details up to your links. You do that more than anyone else on the internet I've ever seen, and it does potentially strike me as useful.) Usually though I just generalize due to lack of time.

And that would involve a lot of discussion about a lot of details in every case. So I'll just say I agree to an extent with your points, and I disagree to an extent, but I think a lot of it could be resolved had we the time to fully flesh out the particulars.

For instance let me use an example we've already discussed. Saint Benedict is considered the founder, or at least co-founder of Western monasticism. However Saint Columba re-established Western monasticism in the West (and it had already existed there) about concurrent to Benedict, just not in a way similar to most Western monasticism. On a model that was eventually suppressed and failed, generally speaking. So although the Irish monks existed prior to the Rule of Benedict, as they did in the East, they were not historically successful in the West. For instance the Benedictines still famously exist. So, was Benedict the Founder of Western monasticism, or was Saint Columba? Or maybe Saint Basil? Or could the Byzantine orders not be said to be the original Western monks since at that time the Empire was still united to some greater or lesser degree?

Well, a lot depends on how you define the term monasticism, whether you mean was it a successful movement or not, where did it come from, how long did it last, who are you talking to and what's their interest in the subject, etc? As the old saying goes, "details dispute, and facts occlude."

So whereas I generally think there's a right answer, or at least a best answer to most every question (I'm no relativist), I'm willing (or maybe just long enough in the tooth) to concede that even best answers often have some very fine and reasonable points of disagreement.

This is a very interesting point, especially the Buddhist angle. I know the 'Gaelic' Monasteries in Ireland and the British isles in the early Medieval period were more organized more like the Orthodox model, and this wasn't changed until around the 12th Century IIRC.

That's my understanding too. The so-called Orders of Columba and Columban, of Irish monasticism. Those orders were much more Orthodox in nature, especially in matters of asceticism, and far more loosely organized. They, and their native descendents were also really big on learning and preserving all sorts of intellectual matter (scared and secular) before it was really fashionable in most other monasteries and orders, not that many other orders and monasteries didn't do a good job at data preservation as well. But the Columban orders were basically suppressed in mainland Europe for both political and intellectual reasons so those orders died on the vines eventually.

I particularly like these orders though because of their association with Patrick (also one of my favorite non-Biblical Saints), because of the ways in which they were sort of similar to Byzantine monasticism, the way they revered information, and the way they were far "looser" and more adaptable than many other Orders. In college, while preparing for the seminary, I actually wrote up a Rule for a monastic Order of married Monks and their families, and I based it far more on the Irish and Byzantine orders than on Western orders. I wish I could find that thing but I lost it moving over the years. I've thought recently though about just trying my hand at re-writing it.

Very interesting, sounds like you know more about cyphers than I do. I think this is a really cool angle for RPGs, especially for your Call of Cthulhu type clues and hand-outs... maybe you could elaborate a little on some ways this can work. I'm also interested in 'cants' etc.

I'm not sure cause I don't know how much you know, but maybe we just know different things about codes and ciphers and crypts. After all nobody knows everything about anything. So maybe we just know different aspects of the same subject matter.

As for adventures I can see adventures arising from smuggling, translations (and translation errors), and the building of both mechanical and magical encryption and encoding devices, similar to the Wheel you mentioned. (A Wizard and/or Sage for instance might build a particularly brilliant mechanical encoder/decoder, and a Sorcerer might build a device which could magically translate any language while also encoding/decoding anything that might be desired. Somebody might even build a complex mathematical encryption machine, similar to the Difference or Analytical Engine, a sort of magical or mechanical computer. With various uses. Such a thing, if others could be made to understand what it does, would be a powerful artifact or device which gives one great advantages over one's political and military enemies. that's basically what I'm leaning towards right now as far as new adventures in my milieu.)

As for other ideas one I've pursued off and on over time are the Glyphing Wars.

The Glyphing Wars occur in my setting in the Byzantine Empire and in parts of Africa and Asia as a sort of "underground movement or War" between humans and others involved in magic and sorcery.

Glyphs can be used as codes of course, and as a magical script (with each glyph having particular magical properties of its own), as communication methods and devices (sometimes magically, and over long distances), and as multi-layered functions of each of those things. Also Glyphs can be used as tools to subtly manipulate the thoughts, psyche, and behavioral inclinations of others, as well as have mass or group effects sometimes.

And I've used glyphs as you described above, where a work seems to be related a coded message or communication in glyphs, and the glyphs are also covertly reshaping reality or reshaping thought and action. (I like magic that works when others don't know it is working, or have no or very little control over it.) Feeding disinformation, charming others, inducing strange behavior, etc.

Glyphs can also be used, depending on how they are shaped and written and arranged in sequence, to disrupt magical effects, to create new magic's, to help devise and invent technologies, to create new languages, and so forth and so on. About the only thing they can't do is effect Miracles or Relics, though they can be sued to alter or disrupt the way miracles and relics seem or appear to operate. They can't curse a relic or a Miracle of God, but what they can do, if employed destructively or evilly, is to make a miracle or relic seem to malfunction or to act in some manner contrary to its nature, even though in reality it is only the perception of the thing that has been altered, not the reality.

Well, given those things, imagine a Glyphing Machine being created. It too would be a powerful artifact, maybe even a very small one, but it could have multiple functions. You could possibly build an entire campaign around a Glyphing Machine, and of course those ideas are hardly exhaustive. What about a talking Glyphing Machine that has a built in magical charisma and that can be secretly programmed? That's just to give an idea of something I'm thinking of.

Anywho you could do a lot with ciphers, codes, and crypts and the devices that employ them, especially when mixed with magic and/or inventive innovation.

For instance think of a Voynich manuscript filled with illustrations and scripts that are really secretly glyphs in disguise or in another form? Or of a Glyphing Machine that could secretly or covertly encode the ambient, natural, or associated environment? Such things would be very dangerous and powerful indeed. Not least of which because no-one knows or understands what they are really doing.

Yes probably, but to a somewhat limited degree - rather like teaching knife fighting to modern Marines, they might do it mostly for morale, it has benefit but somewhat limited. Keep in mind warfare in this era was more about guns, pikes, and cannons than individual heroes contending in one on one duels.

We know most of the fechtbuchs were associated with civilians of the Burgher class, mostly for judicial combat, and with the fencing Guilds, which did have some military overlap. Almost all the manuals teach one on one fighting though.

But there is no doubt the Aristocrats had their own personal fighting systems which were taught in their own courts and castles, and there does appear to be some overlap with the Fechtbuchs, for example Ott Jud was a court martial arts (wrestling) instructor for a German count IIRC.

I'm gonna have to research this in detail when I get the chance. Sounds very interesting indeed.

Maybe even worth becoming involved with as an archaeological expedition or study.

Well, I gotta scoot.

Lunch break is over, my time is up, and my kids have music lessons this afternoon.

See ya later.


P.S.: One other thing I just thought of.

Changing the nature of how something operates by changing the language and Script in which it is written.

For instance changing the way Magic works when a magical text or tome is translated into a language considered a Holy or Sacred Language. Say you translate a book on magic or containing spells, written in a Magical Script, into Hebrew, or High Church Latin? How might that affect the way the magic works?

Of course the same could be said to be true of vernacular scripts. If you translate magical scripts into more common languages does that do away with or dispel or disrupt the magic, or does it change it and the way it operates in either subtle or drastic ways?

What about a book on miracles, relics, and thaumaturgy (miracle working, or Divine magic)? If that is translated either into a vernacular script or a magical script then how does that affect the Divine magic?

The de facto game assumption is that imperfect or non-intentional or altered translation or transcription either disrupts or dispels written magical effects. What if it did neither, but just changed, altered, or mutated magical and miraculous scripts, how they operated, and the amounts and details and types of power they demonstrated?

Anyways, gotta relaly go now.

 

[Dragonbait]

I think my IQ just rose a few points reading this.
Hey, I can do basic division now!

+XP for several of you.

 

[Matthew_]

I've often wondered, given the situation with Benedict (not the current Pope, but the Saint and founder of monastic orders in the West), and some of the later founders of monastic orders, if the Byzantine efforts at monasticism (and their corresponding early idea of the Warrior-Monk) did not in fact have a far lager influence on Western monasticism than previously thought.

Especially in regards to the idea of the ascetic practices, and in other ideas, such as Warrior-Monks (though that particular idea was, pragmatically speaking, relatively short lived as a real practice in the West and may have very well evolved prior to the commonly accepted Warrior Monk idea in the East - depends on how you define the idea exactly, and where you are talking about).

This sounds interesting. I am not familiar with a Byzantine warrior-monk precursor, could you elaborate on what you are referring to? [i.e. provide some context in terms of sources and dates]. It sounds like something worth following up.

 

[Jack7]

This sounds interesting. I am not familiar with a Byzantine warrior-monk precursor, could you elaborate on what you are referring to? [i.e. provide some context in terms of sources and dates]. It sounds like something worth following up.

I did a little internet search to see if I could find on-line sources for what I was talking about and discovered some things even I had never heard of before. For instance, if these sources can be believed, and I really don't know then the Religious and Military Order of the Holy Sepulcher goes all the way back to Constantine and Helena. I'll have to investigate this myself later on to see how true it might ring.

Anyway later on I'll discuss Orthodox or Eastern (though at that time they were merely Christian, there was no real Catholic, Orthodox, or other such divisions) Hermits, Monks, Warrior Monks, and Warrior-Saints, like Saint George. And Western Warrior Monks, and by that I mean Catholic like the Templars and Hospitallers (from which we get the same root and idea as Hospitality and Hospital) which came much later. But for right now I'll have to cut this short for now as my bitch is delivering and Great Dane births can be hard sometimes. I've already had to extract one breeched pup by hand. But I'll come back to it later when things have calmed down.

Anyways I'm sure Gall and others can add a thing or two.

 

[Galloglaich]

I'm going to split my reply into two posts, since there is so much ground to cover here!

I'm gonna leave some of the Roman stuff aside for lack of time and because I've recently come to the conclusion that's it not really productive to argue on the internet.

Agreed And ... lets be candid. Everyone has a little bit of a bias. I'm probably a little biased in favor of the Barbarians, but I'm fascinated by all of them, and we clearly have knowledge here that kind of overlaps. I can already tell you know a great deal more about the Byzantines than I do... I've read the Alexiad and a book about the 4th Crusade and a handful of Wikipedia entries about the Varangian guard, beyond that I'm pretty stone ignorant. I think we can learn a lot from each other here which is far more productive than arguing, and I suspect we agree on the facts more than we disagree...

I do though find your method of communicating over the intent by embedding explanatory or expanding links ...

Thanks, I kind of borrowed this idea from blogs, it's actually part of an agenda to avoid arguing in favor of learning more

For instance let me use an example we've already discussed. Saint Benedict is considered the founder, or at least co-founder of Western monasticism. However Saint Columba re-established Western monasticism in the West

Yes the Roman Church seems to have changed things, one could argue, for the worse but I am going to kind of skirt that topic. I agree with everything you said about the Irish monks who certainly appreciated and preserved a wealth of vital knowledge for future generations. I also wanted to point out, regarding your idea of a Rule for married monks, I think St. Brigid tried to arrange something like that between a Monastary and a Convent... dont' remember the details though or if it succeeded.

I loved reading some of the margin notes of the Irish monks transcribing Herodotus and commenting on what a beautiful day it was an how nice the birds were and how happy he was to be alive. Can't help sympathise with them. Just for fun here are a couple of Irish monks ruins from the Middle Ages and the 'Dark Ages'. (I think ancient ruins are awesome inspiration for game settings so I like to sprinkle them around my posts here)

Love the Irish round towers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_round_tower

I believe this one dates from circa 700 AD. It's holding up pretty good considering no mortar was used to make it.

So although the Irish monks existed prior to the Rule of Benedict, as they did in the East, they were not historically successful in the West.

Well they were sort of suppressed and reorganized at those various synods around the end of the Viking Age, right? After that the 'Gaelic' Church was basically Roman Catholic.

I'd like to learn more about the Byzantine orders, that sounds fascinating, I've always been impressed with their Monasteries too, they look quite formidable:

Sumela has to be the most fascinating, talk about an evocative location! I wish I could go there one day, maybe I will eventually, been wanting to go to Turkey for about 20 years....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sümela_Monastery

G.