History repeats itself

[The Little Raven]

You say that like it is a bad thing.

That's a wholly different discussion for a wholly different thread.

I will say this... it's easier for them to put rules for Group #2 and allow Group #1 to simply do what it has always done... apply DM fiat on SoD traps/spells (since, honestly, 4e won't incorporate them in a fashion that is fully balanced in the system). Since DM fiat doesn't need any rules, I don't see it being a problem.

 

[Reynard]

Aside from the 4E forums on EN World and Wizards I haven't seen or heard much buzz or interest in the new system. There is very little discussion about 4E when I meet with gamers who aren't regulars on these boards, and even amongst those that stay on top of what's happening with 4E, feelings are mixed to say the least.

This has nothing to do with 4E, good or bad. it has to do with WotC's marketing strategy: hardcore (read: message board attending) gamers first, semi-hardcore gamers next (those that are going to see the Preview books on the shelves), and then (ostensibly) everyone else -- print advertising, banner ads, that kind of thing. A couple months before release I am sure we will see 4E advertising outside the existing consumer base. it should tell us a lot about who WotC thinks their potential new customers are.

 

[Reynard]

I don't see it being a problem.

But it does need explicit support.

 

[The Little Raven]

But it does need explicit support.

DM fiat needs explicit support? Color me confused. I thought DM fiat was all about doing things that aren't supported, hence the need for it.

 

[AZRogue]

History repeating itself indeed, heh. Far too much anger over something as inevitable as fat men in red in December. DnD gets revised into new editions. It's been 8 years since 3E was released. It happens.

Luckily the books don't disappear when the new edition is released and, thanks to the OGL, there is a wealth of material out there for those who don't want to make the change.

As a matter of fact, those who love 3E and who don't want to change over to 4E have it better than anyone else ever has for any of the other editions. Your resources are vast. Rock on. You aren't getting the short end of anything.

Hopefully I'm still around to welcome 5E when it comes down the pipes. Or maybe I'll change sides for a change of pace.

 

[outsider]

Dude, it's subtraction.

You had to subtract things that for some reason have a + next to them(eg magic armor bonuses or any AC bonus really. It also speeded play if you just subtracted your to hit bonus from your THAC0, again subtracting something that clearly suggests you should be adding it). If that doesn't qualify for needlessly complicated, I don't know what would.

THAC0? You mean, the rule which "simplified" the mass of charts in 1e?

"Remember those huge charts you needed to use just to hit an orc? We've taken them away, and replaced them with a simple formula! You won't believe how fast fights go now!"

The more things change...

Yep. I never had to use the 1e charts so I have no idea if it was actually an improvement or not. Even if it was an improvement, it was still a needlessly complicated system. Better doesn't neccessarily equal perfect, just like flawed doesn't neccessarily equal sucky.

 

[Vradna]

I have Asperger's syndrome, it seems.

I call bull. Give us a direct quote that directly comes from a designer/developer saying "Previous editions suck." as opposed to the real things they've been saying "Previous editions have had problems."

I realize that this quoted post is two or three pages old, but It helped me identify why I have some misgivings about the apparent future of D&D.

Previous editions have had problems. I agree and kudos to the designers of 3rd Edition for not hiding this. These reason(s) why previous editions had problems appear to be many and varied, but the official stance is that previous editions had problems and 4E will be fun.

My trouble coping with this candor is that I have lost confidence in the producers of the game to produce something that will still be around in a few years. I am sure that the producers of D&D will make 4th Edition quite fun, but my fear is that in a few short years, 4th Edition will be cast in the light that it too, had 'problems' that that I should consider playing 5th Edition.

I believe 3 edition upgrades in just under a decade (2 to 3, 3 to 3.5 and 3.5 to 4th in less than 10 years) is too much for me to bear in a a pen and paper game. Were D&D a computer game, I would not a see a problem with that because the impact is a lot smaller. I simply do not want to continually upgrade my game system if right or wrong, new editions are popping out every few years.

Thus, I am now quite content to watch, wait and see if 4th Edition has any staying power or if it time to move on....Or if someone wants to prove to me that my money is well invested in 4th Edition as a stable, well-thought, thoroughly playtested and concise rule-set which can be added to by splat books but will not bog down like a Lappy 486 trying to run a LOTRO Private Server, or be superseded by 4.X Edition, but something completely new (and not relatively soon; I want something that is going to last at least 4 years), I am all ears.

 

[Khairn]

This has nothing to do with 4E, good or bad. it has to do with WotC's marketing strategy: hardcore (read: message board attending) gamers first, semi-hardcore gamers next (those that are going to see the Preview books on the shelves), and then (ostensibly) everyone else -- print advertising, banner ads, that kind of thing. A couple months before release I am sure we will see 4E advertising outside the existing consumer base. it should tell us a lot about who WotC thinks their potential new customers are.

Preview books are for the "semi-hardcore" players? Even the owner of the FLGS called it paying to read 4E advertising. But that's another thread altogether.

I agree that what you said is probably their plan. But if they haven't got their grassroots core players excited and supporting the change its going to be a serious uphill struggle. And I really don't see WotC currently having that grassroot support. But hey, that's only 1 opinion.

 

[Hussar]

Yes, but THEN, people who opposed 3e were stick-in-the-mud grognards making irrational claims and unable to appreciate the art of game design, as well as reacting emotionally and exaggerating the impact of games like Diablo on D&D design.

Today, critics of 4e are making well-reasoned arguments based on solid facts, sound knowledge of game design theory and practice, and have strong evidence of the influence of MMORPGs like WOW on many 4e design decisions.

I read the rest of the thread, but, y'know, this quote from the first page just says it all. Perfectly. Well done that man/woman/being.

 

[Ipissimus]

What I find amusing is that all this gnashing of teeth is, in part, all our fault.

For years, we've been identifying problems areas of 3e in the same way that we (the players) have since 1e. Back in 1e, it was the lack of character options. I remember when every fighter, paladin and ranger was sword 'n board and the only thing you could do was take a swing in combat and at first level, the wizard was completely useless. Unearthed Arcana 1e and later 2e tried to fix that problem by giving us more options to create the characters we wanted to play rather than forcing us into a jello mould (thank the dark elf for his part in this). But the big bugbear for 2e was the nonstandard modifiers and they never really did too much for making combat a bit more exciting.

3e rolls around and everyone can make their voices heard through the internet. We all take this opportunity to let the devs know the problems they're encountering with 'GAME BALANCE' being the new buzzword. In an effort to address their audience's discontent with such issues as Polymorph, favored classes (ie people actually wanted to play Paladin/Monks), dice mechanics, etc. They take a look at the rules and try to fix them to please us. After all, the people who don't like the changes can just stick to the old rules just fine and the people who are complaining get satisfactions that they're being heard.

Then one day, we wake up and realize that the house is more band-aid than wood. The only way they could fix it is a new edition, knocking the thing down and rebuilding from almost nothing. And they're doing it for us, to fix the things we've been complaining about (rather rudely in some cases) for years. Oh, and money of course. They're an industry, after all.

So, they know this is going to be a hard sell (particularly after 3.5), and the marketing department's looking down the barrels of our verbal shotguns. And, unsurprisingly (because it's what marketers do), they hit us with the hard sell. '4E will be wonderful, we're fixing all the problems, don't be scared because 4E is the second coming... ok, fourth coming... fifth if you count 3.5'. It sounds good... too good. Years of media exposure have tought us that anything that sounds like it's too good to be true probably is. So, people panic. They try to read between the lines and read into things more than was probably intended.

Of course the same thing happened with 2e and 3e, there are only a certain number of reactions to the same circumstance. History repeats itself (or rhymes... seriously, guys, you're taking the saying too literally. You really think people who say that believe that exactly the same people go through exactly the same circumstance with exactly the same reaction?) in the same way a glass of spilled water creates a stain. What's interesting for me this time around is that i'm seeing a greater cross section of the 'stain' through the 'net.