History repeats itself

[AZRogue]

Well spoken.

 

[Ranger REG]

I wish I was amused, but instead I'm mostly annoyed. To me it's obvious that 4e is going to take over the majority of the RPG market, just as 3e and 3.5e did before them. To those who say, "I will never play 4e!!!" I say, good, didn't want you in my game anyways. I've played a lot of games other than DnD, but I've always came back to DnD.

Curious.

Will you buy 4e products? If so, why? Because of the label "D&D" that turns you on or is it because they convinced you that 4e is an improvement over 3e?

 

[pemerton]

As I recall, the transition from 2E to 3E included a lot of mechanical complaints.

<snip>

The 4E transition includes a lot more complaints about the flavor changes. The reorganization of demons and devils, elves and eladrin, the Shadowfell and the Feywild, etc.

3E was launched as a return to the "good old days" of D&D.

>snip>

4E isn't doing that. it is a reinvention. Much of the gnashing of teeth, I think, comes from that.

<snip>

there's flavor issues

One thing I find interesting about the 4e debate is that it reveals the way in which many D&D players do not include the setting as part of the mechanics, despite the fact that the character of the setting (eg details of monsters, rules for encounter placement and strength, details of planes and their interaction with magic, etc) has a really big impact on the play experience.

One thing that W&M shows is that the 4e designers are not thinking in that way. Every change described in that book is all about changing the way the game plays, with certain definite goals in mind - it is not just "change for the sake of change" or merely changes in fluff and flavour.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Actually, it looks far more restrictive to me -- based on what little we know and the fact it's really more like the STL than the old OGL. WOTC has made it clear they don't want anymore Spycrafts, M&Ms, or Conans feeding off their turf, or even games which only "require" the Players Handbook in the most cursory way. (Many 'stand alone' D20 games used the STL and technically 'required' the 3e handbook, except for the part where they didn't. I believe such games will be impossible to produce under the 'new' OGL, which seems narrowly focused to permit only D&D supplements.)

Where do you get that from?

I mean, they apparently decided not to use the d20 licence for 4E material, but I haven't read anything specific about other restrictions.

If you do know of more specifics, please point me to the source - as I plan on publishing 4E OGL material myself, I am highly interested in learning more.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

No, this is one of those threads were the OP makes thinly-veiled disparaging comments about the mental state of a whole class of people, and then begs the board to validate his opinion.

No, it was more of a general observation on the behavior of gamers. I observed the same thing with edition changes for D&D 3.X, the various editions of Shadowrun, WFRP 2nd Edition, and many, many other games. Somehow, the mere announcement of a new edition seems to result in an explosion of rumor, hearsay, and speculation being reported as fact.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I don't remember any of the hysteria over the release of 3rd edition.

Then maybe you weren't active on many gaming forums back then. It's amazing what kind of stuff you can find in Usenet archives from 1999 or so.

Here:

I have heard that the 3rd ed classes will include a new assassin and
barbarian class. I really hope that this is not truly the case. I hated them
from Unearthed Arcana. I think they are useless classes that can be
duplicated by good role-play and thoughtful character creation.

Also, while I am still wishing...please do not dumb it down any more than
the 2nd ed was.

Or here:

> Personally I will be playing 2nd edition until the day I die, or until the
> people at TSR or Hasbro, or whoever the hell they are pull their heads out of
> their asses--whichever comes first. My only hope is that not everyone will be
> converted, and there will always be people out there who love 2nd edition as
> much as I do.

Or here:

Is anyone else viewing the Hasbro acquisition of WOTC as the death
knell for Dungeons & Dragons? I can remember well the way that
mainstream game companies entered the roleplaying game market in the
early '80s when RPGs were hot, and how quickly they abandoned it.

I had faith that WOTC would be devoted to D&D and continue to develop
the game. I can't see much reason to believe that Hasbro will be
devoted to it, or that they will allow things in the game that leave
the company vulnerable to criticism (devils, demons, evil player
characters and the like). A large corporation that markets most of its
products to children at national retail outlets isn't going to stand
up for the editorial freedom to include Asmodeus in a game. They're
more likely to produce Anatomically Correct Barbie.

I was planning to buy the new edition of D&D upon its release next
year, but Hasbro's acquisition of WOTC probably kills that idea. Why
spend a bunch of money on a product that will either be (a)
unsupported or (b) unrecognizeable in a few years? Seems like time to
move completely away from TSR's properties and spend more money on the
smaller stalwarts like Steve Jackson Games.

Or here

Ahh to hell with it! WotC already killed the game with this moronic 3rd
Edition idea anyway. Sounds like the offical death trumpet for AD&D. The
really cool stuff is long gone ... might as well snuggle up close to one of
those stupid yellow Pokemon dog look'n thingies. Warm and cozy Pokemon ...
just what D&D fans are looking for. Bet you G. Gygax is turning over in his
hammock at this very moment.

Or here:

After seeing the chat from TSRKe...@aol.com about the 3e, Greyhawk will be the
default setting! Why does there have to be an official world, why not support
all the in-print worlds equally [unless Forgotten Realms WON'T be in print any
longer...]? This same exact silly mistake was made with the Forgotten Realms
years ago, apparently an obvious lesson can't be learned. However, years of
viscious tooth gnashing, persistent crying and wailing got Greyhawk back to the
front! But to what end? Well Living Greyhawk of course!

At least the move to push all things 'Hawk has sparked a Living Greyhawk.
Please mail all your beligerant teen gamers (heavily armed or otherwise), power
gamers and munchkins to the Living Greyhawk as soon as possible to ease the
transition. Combine the power lust of certain Monty Haul Living City
atrocities with the natural obese treasure and magic item hoard fetish of
Greyhawk modules and we should soon be seeing modules that'd make H4 Throne of
Bloodstone blush for it's pitiful kill scores. Just remember, your Living City
character may be forced into retirement at 20th level, but in Greyhawk the sky
is always falling and six stripling heroes can do what millions of pitful and
moronic citizens can't!


Just a small sampling. And maybe now you can understand why I am experiencing a strong sense of Deja vu at the moment.

 

[FourthBear]

Perhaps I'm not remembering correctly, but I think I recall *more* negative outpourings on Third Edition than I do about 4e. I think some of that has more to do with the situation (WotC being seen as a usurper), but I recall lots and lots of knockdown, eye-gouging fights on Usenet, forums and mail lists on this subject. Fights on THAC0, fights on initiative, fights on racial limits, fights on number inflation, fights on pandering to a younger audience, fights about card game influence, fights on video game influences, fights, fights and more fights. I do find the occasional opinion expressed here and there that somehow people argued about 3e in a more productive way and people came around with more light and less heat, puzzling. Who can forget the "spiky art" wars?

 

[Eldorian]

Curious.

Will you buy 4e products? If so, why? Because of the label "D&D" that turns you on or is it because they convinced you that 4e is an improvement over 3e?

Yawn. I'll buy them because in 5 years 3e will be in the state that 2e is in now, as far as players go. I hold no illusions about the power of nerd rage. Also, I happen to like most of the changes I've heard about.

Now, I'll admit that 4e doesn't excite me like 3e did. My entire group was chomping at the bit for 3e, and in fact stopped playing 2e and switched exclusively to white wolf for the last few months before it released. After that we played 3e pretty much exclusively for the last 8 years or so. But that's because 2e really was a bad game (remember kits? Bard kits weaker than fighter kits weaker than elf kits weaker than dwarf kits etc). It was just a game that all of us knew. 3e was a better game, and 4e looks to be a better game than 3.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Just a small sampling.

Nice. I particularly liked the guy who said that Hasbro wouldn't allow demons, devils and evil characters in a product they produce.

 

[HP Dreadnought]

Meh. . .

The sky was falling for some folks when 3E came out. Most of them switched anyway. . . only to have to sky start falling again when 3.5 came out. . . to which most of them switched anyway

. . . now its 4Es turn to be a "horrible mistake" that leads to "the splintering and death of D&D."

I guess some people just have a lot more fun being all up in arms about something, rather than just accepting that tomorrow won't be too much different from today figuratively speaking.

"Full of sound and fury -- signifying nothing" comes to mind.

Too much drama for my taste personally.