History repeats itself

[Reynard]

So, suddenly, "Arbitrary traps weren't very fun" equates into "The entire edition isn't fun?"

Did I miss that memo?

It is an example of the kind of thing Lizard is talking about. It pops up with fair regularity, and is inevitably going to rankle people who think, for example, arbitrary traps are in fact fun.

Here's the thing: what individuals happen to find exciting or disturbing about 4E says nothing at all about the game, but it saysloads about the preferences and expectations of the individual. For example, that I am one of the people who thinks the traps article is totally off the mark and edging on insulting is a little window into my thoughts and feelings about traps in D&D.

 

[Reynard]

That's also because the crunch was going through far more substantial change. 3e was tearing down the old house and building an entirely new one. 4e is taking that new house and renovating it while leaving the solid foundation (basic d20 mechanics) in place.

3E, at launch anyway, was a renovation -- the structure and the foundation remained the same but they shifted the rooms around and installed newer appliances. 4E, by contrast, is an entirely new house that conforms to existing zoning laws (I'm a land surveyor -- I can't help it).

 

[The Little Raven]

It is an example of the kind of thing Lizard is talking about. It pops up with fair regularity, and is inevitably going to rankle people who think, for example, arbitrary traps are in fact fun.

So... what... we can't point out problems that the majority have with particular subsystems because it might offend some minority?

 

[Reynard]

So... what... we can't point out problems that the majority have with particular subsystems because it might offend some minority?

The rest of the post you quoted was more to the point than the portion you actually responded to.

Plus, it isn't a problem -- it is a playstyle preference issue. Providing support for one playstyle does not mean you can't also provide support for the other.

 

[The Little Raven]

3E, at launch anyway, was a renovation -- the structure and the foundation remained the same but they shifted the rooms around and installed newer appliances.

2e: Inconsistent d20 mechanic (alternates between roll high and roll low) paired with a percentile-based skill system for certain things (thief skills) and other random rolls (surprise, finding secret doors as an elf, etc.)
3e: Consistent d20 mechanic paired with minor legacy systems that use other methods of probability (some percentile rolls, etc.)
4e: Consistent d20 mechanic with different math scaling.

3e and 4e are way closer to eachother than 2e and 3e were.

4E, by contrast, is an entirely new house that conforms to existing zoning laws (I'm a land surveyor -- I can't help it).

Except that everyone who has seen 4e has stated that 4e is closer to 3e than 3e was to 2e.

Thus, the "new house" (2e->3e) and "renovated new house" (3e->4e) analogy sounds far more accurate based on information from people in the know.

 

[Khairn]

When 3E was announced not a single gaming group at our FLGS was playing AD&D. White Wolf 's WoD was hands down the #1 game system in our area, with many other games Gurps, Rolemaster and Palladium seeming to pull in equal players as AD&D. When 3E was announced, there was wide spread delight that a new edition was coming out. And even though some players didn't like it at the end, it truly did rejuvenate the D&D brand (and table top gaming) in our area.

Fast forward to today and we have various D20 games being played at a different FLGS. D&D, Arcana Evolved, M&M etc. The announcement of the pending release of 4E drew lots of attention in August, but since then there has been a steady feeling of "meh ...maybe I'll look at it later".

Aside from the 4E forums on EN World and Wizards I haven't seen or heard much buzz or interest in the new system. There is very little discussion about 4E when I meet with gamers who aren't regulars on these boards, and even amongst those that stay on top of what's happening with 4E, feelings are mixed to say the least.

Now I am not saying that my experiences are a benchmark for the rest of the industry. But I do feel that the table top gaming "consumer" has changed since the launch of 3E, and I certainly do feel that the market has changed as well. So even though I'll laugh with everyone jumping on the "aren't those whiners stupid" bandwagon, it seems clear to me that so far in this launch, 4E doesn't have the "umph" that 3E did. And with the many WotC decisions that have angered different parts of their core customer base (magazines, FR spellplague etc) I wouldn't be surprised if 4E doesn't become a huge hit.

 

[The Little Raven]

Providing support for one playstyle does not mean you can't also provide support for the other.

If the difference between the two is "arbitrary traps that kill the player/party if the single trap-guy doesn't do the exact right thing, or have enough magic to make it completely trivial, are okay!" and "I'd rather traps that involve the entire party, or have less 'save-or-die' impact on the player/party," it's not so easy to provide for both groups, unless you're going to build the mechanics for the second group and give the first group the option of being as arbitrary as they want to be... and that comes down to DM fiat.

 

[The Little Raven]

4E doesn't have the "umph" that 3E did.

You can only fall in love for the first time once.

 

[Reynard]

If the difference between the two is "arbitrary traps that kill the player/party if the single trap-guy doesn't do the exact right thing, or have enough magic to make it completely trivial, are okay!" and "I'd rather traps that involve the entire party, or have less 'save-or-die' impact on the player/party," it's not so easy to provide for both groups, unless you're going to build the mechanics for the second group and give the first group the option of being as arbitrary as they want to be...

It's easy.

Encounter Traps: This is a particular kind of trap that has a particular purpose. they work like this...

Traditional Traps (Immediate Traps? Simple Traps?): This is another kind of trap that serves a different purpose. They work like this...

and that comes down to DM fiat.

You say that like it is a bad thing.

 

[Zaruthustran]

The impression I'm getting from almost every single WotC staff's blog entry is that 4E is goint to be the total opposite of 3E, not just a streamlined, fixed 3.X (remember the "don't bother converting your 3.X PC to 4E?"). I'm hoping my impresions are wrong, because I, as anyone, would gladly welcome any good RPG ruleset. But the hints I'm getting rub me the wrong way.

This here is the problem. Were you honestly hoping that 4e would in fact be 3.75e???

No way. The change from 3 to 4 had to be as dramatic as the change from 2 to 3.

3e had its day, and all those materials are still out there for those that want it. Not me. I want something new, something fresh. I want something that takes the core D&D experience of sitting around a table with buddies pretending to be fighters and magic-users who kill monsters and take their stuff, and makes that experience better.

I want an entirely new edition.

-z