Hit Points & Healing Surges Finally Explained!

[Loincloth of Armour]

Fully understanding that doesn't necessarily make us happy with the direction of the game, so I think it unlikely that revealing to us things we already understand is likely to change our minds.

"Direction of the game?"

I've been dropped in vats of acid since Keep on the Borderlands, and hps do now what they've always done.

The only difference is that now I'm not always begging the cleric to reattach my face. Sometimes a simple, "Suck it up Princess!" is enough to get me back on my feet. Now, I'm that badass. It doesn't stretch my willing suspension of disbelief any further than it normally is.

Aside: The warlord must one day be given a power called Suck it up Princess. The game demands it.

 

[Ahglock]

I'm really hoping that the podcast goes some way towards changing people's mindset in regards to the hit point mechanic. I'm so tired of groups that think literally when it comes to hit points and can't seem to grasp the abstract nature of the mechanic.

The amount of times I've run games and described the combats using concepts like near misses, strained muscles, minor cuts or bruises, being winded, armour damage that hinders the character, etc. only to be mocked by players who can't seem to wrap their minds around an abstract concept is truly tiring.

How does it make more sense to survive multiple killing blows that would have your guts hanging out and your head lolling to one side as opposed to near misses and whatnot?

People just can't get past the terms 'hit point' and 'damage'. I really wish they'd rename them.

P.S. I love you, Mike *swoon*.

I think everyone understands and understood there was a level of abstraction in HP. They have problems with it being abstract strained muscles when its continuing poison or fire damage. Or how you are just winded, and the next HP of damage makes you dieing. You are dieing and then all of a sudden you have 25% HP. There are tons of issues with the 4e HP/damage/healing mechanic that just cluing people into it being an abstract system does not solve.

 

[pawsplay]

Hit Points & Healing Surges would be a terrible name for a role-playing game.

 

[kibbitz]

I think everyone understands and understood there was a level of abstraction in HP. They have problems with it being abstract strained muscles when its continuing poison or fire damage. Or how you are just winded, and the next HP of damage makes you dieing. You are dieing and then all of a sudden you have 25% HP. There are tons of issues with the 4e HP/damage/healing mechanic that just cluing people into it being an abstract system does not solve.

It's really about the healing surges, isn't it? Healing surges seem to be viewed as unrealistic internalized personal healing by people who despise it. The abstract strained muscles bit seems to point to this. Damage inconsistencies of this sort though, haven't they been in D&D since... D&D?

Asphyxiation, I believe, did HP damage too. So your Wizard with 40 HP, down to 1 HP purely from asphyxiation (just assume he resisted all the fire damage and avoided being clipped by falling rubble/stuff) after escaping a burning building. He gets poked with dagger for 2 damage, now lies dying. Don't see how this is different from the 'winded->dying scenario'.

Though this gets me wondering... would people only who hate the 4e healing surge because of the "abstract strained muscles vs physical damage" bit be okay if the surges only restored temporary HP unless the surge is enhanced magically by a Cleric or other appropriate class?

 

[Dire Bare]

The warlord must one day be given a power called Suck it up Princess. The game demands it.

I completely agree with this! Yes!

 

[lutecius]

As abstract as the mechanic is meant to be, "damage" is a fairly concrete term that carries lots of connotative baggage. I also think that for a player new to the system, it is sometimes difficult to work out/understand their character's condition and current health. Hit points have been trumped by healing surges and even more importantly failed death saving throws.
I think this has been a stumbling block in players accepting 4E, although in play, it does actually work fairly smoothly. Personally I would prefer a more concrete sytem rather than the abstract, but heh... such is the way of things.

Same here. My problem with abstract hps is that no matter what you call them, there are already other mechanics (saves mostly) that represent skills, near misses, morale and such. So to me they're not only abstract to the point of not representing anything, they're also thematically redundant.

Some of us have understood that some portion of hit points represented abstract qualities like luck, destiny, and skill since reading the 1st edition DMG.

Fully understanding that doesn't necessarily make us happy with the direction of the game, so I think it unlikely that revealing to us things we already understand is likely to change our minds.

Yes. I hoped 4e would alleviate the problem not make it worse. They could have implemented Armor as damage reduction too. Armour or magic, depending on the class, could have replaced the extra hit points.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Although there are a few people who don't "get" the abstract nature of hit points, it's a caricature -- and thus a straw man -- to attribute that to all, most, or many of the people who don't like 4E's system.

Personally speaking, I like healing surges. My beef with 4E is that there's no way to be actually injured ... at least beyond six hours. There's simply no denying that changing "three days" -- the average time for natural healing in 3E -- to "six hours" -- the maximum time for healing in 4E is a significant change.

Any attempt to characterize dislike of that change as a failure to understand that "hit points are abstract" is disingenuous. At best.

 

[nightwyrm]

I look at hp and healing surges in reverse. Your healing surges are your "real" hp. It's how much strain you can take for the entire day, with some resting and breaks during the day. Your hp value is the amount of punishment you can take in a short period of time.

The following is how I rationalize healing surges and hp. People tend to be able to take more punishment if it's spread out over a day. If you take a lot of damage over a short period of time, it overloads your body even if it's less than your theoretical daily limit. When you uses up a healing surge, you're recharging your punishment threshold. When your hp goes to 0 even with a bunch of unused healing surge, your body is being overloaded by damage that is coming in too quickly for the body to handle, and you're basically dying from shock.

No sudden regeneration, no instant closing of cut wounds. When you use a healing surge, it's just your body absorbing the damage and ignoring it for the moment so that you can continue to fight unimpaired because if you don't, you're gonna fall down and get chopped up.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Aside: The warlord must one day be given a power called Suck it up Princess. The game demands it.

I'm no fan of 4Ed, but I'm behind THAT 100%.

 

[Toras]

The problem I have always had with hit points, beyond that fact that sprained ankles tend not to be even slight metal. (And lo, did I not stub my toe mightly upon yon foe and didst feel the agony of it. Yet I shall preserver through the pain and slay my foe anon)

Sometimes, you need to know if you hurt someone or got her in a specific fashion. If I harpoon someone, the difference between them being speared and them hurting themselves avoiding the blow becomes quite important. As does it if I'm using fire and they are carrying oil.

Put another way, I and my enemy are dueling with poison blades. Wence are we poisoned?

I have always thought it might be interesting to run it straight, essential making HP and healing surges exactly like what they sound and making the character's men and women part from others. Fated or something similar. The fighter rises Jason Voorhees style after his Boromir style exit. They've already made PCs different, but you can take it a step further and make that a story point. Let them be marked or something similar, and let them be loved or feared in equal number.