Hit Points & Healing Surges Finally Explained!

[Jeff Wilder]

If HP are abstract why are we even having the discussion. If they are abstract then both magical and non magical healing can make perfect sense.

This would only necessarily be correct if "abstract" were solely a binary condition.

"More abstract" (or "less abstract") is not a fallacious construction. Other posts in this thread have explained this quite clearly.

It is true that hit points represent an abstract system in every edition of D&D. Yet it is also true that hit points are too abstract for my enjoyment in 4E. These two sentences do not represent a logical contradiction, and it's important to understand that.

Its like the monty python sketch, you may have chopped off my arms but I will still headbut you to death.

Okay. That's not what I want out of D&D.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The above would generate much the same feeling in me as when my mother would say to me, "Here, you should try some of this cole slaw.", and I would reply, "Thank you, but I don't like cole slaw.", and she would reply, "Yes, but this is good cole slaw."

Another comparison might be:
"I can't get this new game to work. I try to launch it, but it always reports some unhandled exception".
"Hmm. Have you tried to reinstall it?"
"Of course I tried that! Didn't work, obviously."
"Ah, now I remember - I had this problem too. You need to update your DirectX!"

Variants:
1)
"Wisecrack, I don't want to update my DirectX"
"But then it doesn't work! How can I help you then?"
2)
"Tried that, but it didn't work! Another game failed then."
"Okay, that's strange. I am afraid I can't help you."

---



Okay, that's strange. I am afraid I can't help you. Hit points with Healing Surges don't work for you. Sorry I couldn't help you.

 

[jensun]

Like I said, one of my favorites.

Yes, intentionally stilted examples certainly do help you to prove your point.

 

[Ydars]

The problem with 4E HP is not that they are more abstract than HP in other editions, it is that we now have another abstract system built on top of HP; healing surges.

So we now have TWO layers of abstraction between the game and the world it is trying to model.

A further abstraction of something already abstract! This MULTIPLES the level of vagueness in the system by an order of magnitude.

For some people this is just too much to take. I am getting used to it but it will never sit as comfortably with me as I would like.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Yes, intentionally stilted examples certainly do help you to prove your point.

"Intentionally stilted"? Explain, please. What about my examples doesn't fit with how some folks are saying 4E hit points work? I was directly responding to someone who said that under 4E, the wounds are still there after the hit points and healing surges are fully recovered. If that's true (note the conditional), how are my examples inaccurate?

(Or are you literally claiming they're "stilted," simply as an insult to my writing?)

 

[jensun]

The problem with 4E HP is not that they are more abstract than HP in other editions, it is that we now have another abstract system built on top of HP; healing surges.

So we now have TWO layers of abstraction between the game and the world it is trying to model.

A further abstraction of something already abstract! This MULTIPLES the level of vagueness in the system by an order of magnitude.

For some people this is just too much to take. I am getting used to it but it will never sit as comfortably with me as I would like.

While it may be more abstract for my group they are better at emulating the sort of genres we want to play in. The application of healing surges and self healing has let me run a Conan'esque sword and sorcery more easily than I have ever been able to in the past.

 

[jensun]

"Intentionally stilted"? Explain, please. What about my examples doesn't fit with how some folks are saying 4E hit points work? I was directly responding to someone who said that under 4E, the wounds are still there after the hit points and healing surges are fully recovered. If that's true (note the conditional), how are my examples inaccurate?

You are taking the situation to an extreme and assuming the GM will act like a dick.

This doesnt really help your argument.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

You are taking the situation to an extreme and assuming the GM will act like a dick.

No. I am assuming the DM will offer descriptions that fit how abstract hit points work. The fact that those descriptions lead to absurdities isn't the DM being "a dick" -- in my example, I even had the DM apologize to the players if they were mislead! -- it's simply a result of how some people are claiming 4E hit points work.

Again, rather than tell me what I'm assuming, how about telling me where my examples diverge from the claim that in 4E one can still be wounded without being down any hit points or healing surges. That might be helpful.

Personally I see HP as representing ability to keep going. [...] Healing, whether magical or not, represents the ability to push yourself beyond the norm. [...] Its like the monty python sketch, you may have chopped off my arms but I will still headbut you to death.

The application of healing surges and self healing has let me run a Conan'esque sword and sorcery more easily than I have ever been able to in the past.

Okay, now you're just screwin' with me.

 

[Beginning of the End]

People just can't get past the terms 'hit point' and 'damage'. I really wish they'd rename them.

Yes, I agree. Taking the coherent and logical mechanics from previous editions of the game (in which all damage meant you had suffered some form of physical injury, while sliding the severity of any individual injury based on a character's total hit points) and revamping them to a new system (in which damage doesn't mean damage) was probably a bad idea.

If you're going to so fundamentally change the nature of the mechanic, it would have improved clarity to choose a more appropriate term for the new mechanic.

I recommend replacing the term "hit points" with the term "luck points" in 4th Edition. This leads to a coherent model in which a finite amount of daily luck is burnt off whenever a blow would have otherwise have caused incapacitation. Certain magical rites, physical rest, and even the goodwill of others will make someone "feel lucky". Others believe that in that moment in which the sword of death passes a hair's breath from your neck that you can feel the touch of Ashante, Goddess of Luck and Dice.

Why do minions only have one hit point? They're just not lucky.

Let's all remember the 4th Edition mantra folks: The verisimilitude of the characters and the game world doesn't matter. You should just be happy manipulating the numbers for the sake of manipulating the numbers.

 

[jensun]

Let's all remember the 4th Edition mantra folks: The verisimilitude of the characters and the game world doesn't matter. You should just be happy manipulating the numbers for the sake of manipulating the numbers.

Intentionally misrepresenting stuff is just so 2008. Please find a new record to break.