D&D 4E Hitting "reset": A counterpoint to "gritty" 4e

[Cam Banks]

It's funny. I don't think I look to D&D for a gritty RP experience. Instead, I'd pick up Warhammer FRP or a version of RuneQuest for that. I'm perfectly happy with D&D being cinematic and heroic.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Mercule]

I, too, like the threat of death without actually having it happen. I don't like the reset button, though.

Maybe the "death flag" would work. Otherwise, I'm really trying to work on things like the deadlines, etc.

Unfortunately, last time the PCs reached the goal "coincidentally" at the same time as an NPC party, I got to hear a twenty minute screed on how ridiculous, unrealistic, and unfair that was. Oddly, the two characters we lost in AoW were met with something of a shrug and, "Well, he did say to have a back-up concept."

 

[Irda Ranger]

Maybe it's a matter of taste, but I don't like the idea of a reset button. If all I wanted was a series of consequence-free fights, I'd play Soul Caliber or something. I don't say that to disparage your preferred style of play, but rather simply to mean that I play D&D for the story, not the fights, and the fights (win or lose) are part of the story. I can't hit reset without harming the narrative, so I wouldn't do it.

I've had plenty of PC's die though, and it hasn't been a problem to me because of my point of view. I knew that the PC thought the quest was worth dying for, and so death was not avoided. The risk was willingly accepted. Since D&D is not a gritty game they were always heroes, and never in danger or dying "randomly" in some bar fight or orc ambush; but yes, death was a possibility when fighting the good fight. They were fights with great and worthy opponents.

I think the problem your players have is that they fear no loss greater than the loss of their character's life. To play a game like D&D, where life and limb are risked daily, you must first decide that something is more important than living. Obviously treasure and experience will never suffice, since in death you cannot spend them. It must be something like the freedom of Gondor and Rohan from the tyranny of Mordor, or saving the Temple Mount from the defilement of the Cathar Heretics.

Characters who fear only death, and love nothing more than their own life, should probably not be adventurers in the first place. They should stay within the city walls and take up a nice safe profession, like carpentry.

My proscription would be to avoid the reset button but instead require that your players spell out (in writing) what is most important to them. Then threaten those things, and watch the tension mount. (this has the pleasant side effect of making up quest ideas terribly easy for the DM)

 

[Lackhand]

Maybe it's a matter of taste, but I don't like the idea of a reset button. If all I wanted was a series of consequence-free fights, I'd play Soul Caliber or something. I don't say that to disparage your preferred style of play, but rather simply to mean that I play D&D for the story, not the fights, and the fights (win or lose) are part of the story. I can't hit reset without harming the narrative, so I wouldn't do it.

I've had plenty of PC's die though, and it hasn't been a problem to me because of my point of view. I knew that the PC thought the quest was worth dying for, and so death was not avoided. The risk was willingly accepted. Since D&D is not a gritty game they were always heroes, and never in danger or dying "randomly" in some bar fight or orc ambush; but yes, death was a possibility when fighting the good fight. They were fights with great and worthy opponents.

I think the problem your players have is that they fear no loss greater than the loss of their character's life. To play a game like D&D, where life and limb are risked daily, you must first decide that something is more important than living. Obviously treasure and experience will never suffice, since in death you cannot spend them. It must be something like the freedom of Gondor and Rohan from the tyranny of Mordor, or saving the Temple Mount from the defilement of the Cathar Heretics.

Characters who fear only death, and love nothing more than their own life, should probably not be adventurers in the first place. They should stay within the city walls and take up a nice safe profession, like carpentry.

My proscription would be to avoid the reset button but instead require that your players spell out (in writing) what is most important to them. Then threaten those things, and watch the tension mount. (this has the pleasant side effect of making up quest ideas terribly easy for the DM)

Agreed, to a point. Reset's going a bit far, but players who fear character death want to be protagonists, want to do great things, and want a fairly cinematic game. How that cinema (outtakes/blooper reels?) is achieved is a matter of taste. Not wanting pile after pile of dead characters doesn't mean you fear death for the sake of fearing death, but rather, a constellation of issues of which that's only one possibility.

Dragonblade: I'm glad your solution works for you

 

[Piratecat]

I personally really dislike resets because they suspend my suspension of disbelief too much. The element of risk really drives me, even though I like cinematic games.

Action points have been my solution to balancing out these goals.

 

[Gundark]

We tried the "reset button" option when a player character died during our Age of Worms campaign (by far the most deadly campaign of all time) after a TPK in the "3 faces of evil". The idea seemed good at the time but it ultimately fell on it's face for the following reasons.

1. Character A dies in combat, we hit the reset button and played again. Well Player A lives but Character B dies the second time around (remember the DM is allowed to go "all out"). So we reset again....which lead to point 2.

2. It ended up being a lot of lost real time, the group got tired of having to replay the fight over again. The party wanted to advance in the story and not get stuck replaying stuff.

3. Related to point 1. I found that I was holding back the second time around, which seemed counter to why we were doing "resets" in the first place.

I think resets aren't a bad option for TPKs, it's just not wonderful for individual PC deaths.

 

[shilsen]

I think the problem your players have is that they fear no loss greater than the loss of their character's life. To play a game like D&D, where life and limb are risked daily, you must first decide that something is more important than living. Obviously treasure and experience will never suffice, since in death you cannot spend them. It must be something like the freedom of Gondor and Rohan from the tyranny of Mordor, or saving the Temple Mount from the defilement of the Cathar Heretics.

Characters who fear only death, and love nothing more than their own life, should probably not be adventurers in the first place. They should stay within the city walls and take up a nice safe profession, like carpentry.

I think you're conflating players and characters here. I've played characters who are willing to die for certain things, but that doesn't change the fact that for me as a player, character death usually sucks.

My proscription would be to avoid the reset button but instead require that your players spell out (in writing) what is most important to them. Then threaten those things, and watch the tension mount. (this has the pleasant side effect of making up quest ideas terribly easy for the DM)

Nice idea.

 

[Phlebas]

I personally really dislike resets because they suspend my suspension of disbelief too much. The element of risk really drives me, even though I like cinematic games.

Action points have been my solution to balancing out these goals.

Action points would be my favoured solution too, as well as increasing the range (Level + con) that you can go negative before death occurs.

I wouldn't want to play a 'reset' game, but if your groups having fun, no problem

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I am not sure I'd like a reset button, either. In case of a TPK, it might be a better idea, though, then trying to have an alternative party enter the "plot".

I am not sure your solution would really work for the player that didn't want to resurrect his character. (Is "Preincarnation" better then "Reincarnation"? )

You could try out if the method works at all by having it part of the plot. Create a situation that makes it very likely for the PCs to die, and then have it turn out to be a vision of an upcoming battle. (Whatever the battle is, the PCs should be able to survive it if they know some of its specific - maybe the combat should involve concaled/invisible attackers or unexpected reinforcments that could be countered.

An idea that came to my mind about the Swashbuckling/Action Cards:
What if stabilizing/avoiding Death would have to be payed for by the whole group? This would increase the tension when it happens, and it might faciliate the teamwork idea of the party. (Or it could work horribly against it, if some player deems a character "not worthy". )

I like the Death Flag method, by the way.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Action points have been my solution to balancing out these goals.

My solution as well. Our current game allows spending "glory points" from Mastering Iron Heroes (which are different from standard d20 APs in that you earn them by committing deeds of valor) to add to the results of any d20 roll (attack, save, defense, skill, or ability check). You can also spend glory points to avoid conditions: From as little as 1 to avoid being weakened or dazed, up to 10 to avoid death. In the latter event, the attack that would have killed you simply doesn't happen. I also allow a player to spend a character's existing glory point total, if it is less than 10, to turn "dead" into "dying." Finally, a character's allies can give their own glory points to the character to use on a 1-for-1 basis.

This accomplishes a few things: First, it removes basically any chance of "accidental" death. You can probably spend enough points to turn that failed save against (deadly) poison into a success, or cause the sorcerer's arcane bolt to miss. Second, it keeps the risk of death, but death then becomes a cost as much as a penalty. This echoes the current raise dead/resurrection mechanics, but without the "reboot" quality of those spells. At some point you will run out of glory points, and that final blow, spell, or poison will be unavoidable. Third, it encourages risk-taking and heroism, since more heroism earns you more glory points, which mitigate the risks of failure.

Fourth, it encourages teamwork; in our last session, one of the PCs was possessed by a spirit and chased a group of orcs to another dungeon level, only to come face to face with the orc chieftain and his bodyguard. The other PCs arrived too late to stop the attack that would have killed their friend, but donated their points to him to add to his defense roll, causing the orc chief to miss.