Hobgoblin Skills

[Garnfellow]

Can someone please explain to me how they got the skill modifiers for the hobgoblin warrior 1 in the SRD? I think I've either screwed up the math or there's an error in the stat block.

The hobgoblin's abilities are Str 13, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
The hobgoblin's skill line reads Hide +3, Listen +2, Move Silently +3, Spot +2

Here's my reverse engineering:

Hide: 3 - (+1 Dex, -2 armor check penalty) = 4 ranks
Listen: 2 - (-1 Wis, +2 Alertness) = 1 rank
Move Silently: 3 - (+1 Dex, -2 armor check penalty, +4 racial) = 0 ranks
Spot: 2 - (-1 Wis, +2 Alertness) = 1 rank

That's 6 total skill ranks. All of these skills are cross-class for a warrior, so the hobgoblin would need 12 total skill points. (But note that the most ranks the 1st level hobgoblin could have in a cross-class skill is 2.)

A first level warrior gets (2 + Int mod) x 4 skill points, so the hobgoblin warrior 1 only starts with 8 skill points.

 

[darthkilmor]

looks like they goofed and thought hide was a class skill. good pull.

 

[Infiniti2000]

looks like they goofed and thought hide was a class skill. good pull.

Hide is a class skill for Hobgoblins. From the glossary with my emphasis, "With regards to creatures in general, a class skill is any skill in which a monster has acquired at least one rank or in which the creature has a racial bonus." So, the entry is correct.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Hide is a class skill for Hobgoblins. From the glossary with my emphasis, "With regards to creatures in general, a class skill is any skill in which a monster has acquired at least one rank or in which the creature has a racial bonus." So, the entry is correct.

I don't think that applies in this case, because we are talking about a 1HD humanoid, who therefore loses the majority of his humanoid hit die benefits (of which racial class skills is one) and replaces them with the benefits gained from his class.

Or do elves have Spot and Listen as permanent class skills?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Or do elves have Spot and Listen as permanent class skills?

Yes, they do (including Search). I don't see why that rule wouldn't apply. I agree it should be listed in the Race section, though, if that's your point. Of course, the elf warrior stat block apparently treats them all as cross-class. So, is the definition on "class skill" wrong?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yes, they do (including Search).

Ah. That's where you're wrong.

I don't see why that rule wouldn't apply.

It doesn't apply because:

Humanoids and Class Levels: Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Well, that doesn't talk about racial bonuses. The definition on class skill does.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, that doesn't talk about racial bonuses. The definition on class skill does.

Riiiiight. I'm not sure where you're going with this.

A hobgoblin whatever gains a racial bonus to Move Silently. If he starts taking "humanoid" levels, it's a class skill for him.

If, however, he takes a level in a class, he replaces his "humanoid" class skills with those appropriate for the class.

Note, additionally:

With regards to creatures in general

The general rule is that you determine a creature's class skills in a particular way.

The specific rule for humanoids with 1 HD is that they determine class skills based on their class.

Specific over general.

 

[Pinotage]

Well, that doesn't talk about racial bonuses. The definition on class skill does.

If it does, can you give one example of a published NPC that actually incorporates this rule? Such as elves buying class skill ranks in Spot or Listen or Search. I think you'll find the evidence is against you.

Pinotage

 

[Infiniti2000]

A hobgoblin cannot gain Humanoid hit dice.

The specific rule for humanoids with 1 HD is that they determine class skills based on their class.

Right. And this is in addition to racial class skills. What rule are you referring to that says something to the effect of "all existing class skills or those derived from racial bonuses are lost"? Note that the monster would lose his skills as listed in the example stat block, as you reference in the section on improved monsters, but he actually doesn't have skills until a class is assigned.

If it does, can you give one example of a published NPC that actually incorporates this rule?

How about the hobgoblin?

You may be right that the preponderance of examples suggests against it. That's one way to look at it. The other is to look at the rules and decide which is the rule. I would concede, however, if someone were to go through the trouble and examine all of the relevant examples and prove that the hobgoblin were the only such example on my side. I won't spend the time to do it, though.