Hold Person and Polymorph

[Egres]

Why does righteous might spell out that a size change modifies your attack bonus and AC? Does that suggest that a size change doesn't normally modify your attack bonus and AC? Basic rules are frequently repeated in spell descriptions (and elsewhere).

Agreed.

But we don't have any rule that states that when a spell has a no longer valid target expires.

 

[cordell]

Just to add my 2 cents:

This isn't magic: the gathering. In that game, cards that become invalid targets are no longer affected by the original spells/enchantments.

As far as I remember, in DnD, targetting is checked at casting time only. I never read anything different in any sourcebook.

So, for the Hold Person question: In my opinion, once the human fails his save, it doesnt matter what he polymorphs into, he still has an active Hold Person spell on him. (Of course, this doesn't answer the question of whether a non-humanoid with an active Hold Person spell on him still suffers from the effect. This might be open to a little interpretation. I dont have the experience to rule on something like this, so if I were dm'ing, i would simply side with whatever is best for the player.)

For the Shillelagh question: The staff was a valid target when the spell was cast. So, you are holding a non-magical staff with an active Shillelagh spell on it. This spell happens to give the staff new properties, but you are still [technically] holding a non-magical staff with an active shillelagh spell. For example, if you add "Magic weapon" - the cleric spell - this doesnt make the shillelagh spell go away.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Yea I'm pretty down with that, the whole target-check only upon the casting of said spell.

Though the whole dead invisible character thingy has to occasionally freak people out but the duration doesn't usually last too long. And not to get too gross though but doesn't blood show up from an invisible person as it leaves the body? It's gross but RAW, once something leaves the invisible character's possession...gah

 

[Li Shenron]

A DM is always right, almost by definition. One day the DM says "I am being wrong" and the universe collapses under the logical loop of the very sentence.

I don't think everyone actually plays the game this way regarding Shillelagh for example, unless you people are saying that you have banned the spell from your game because "it didn't work"

 

[Hypersmurf]

For the Shillelagh question: The staff was a valid target when the spell was cast. For example, if you add "Magic weapon" - the cleric spell - this doesnt make the shillelagh spell go away.

I agree. But if you cast Magic Weapon on the staff, and then Shillelagh, the Shillelagh would fail, since the target is invalid at time of casting.

-Hyp.

 

[AuraSeer]

As far as I remember, in DnD, targetting is checked at casting time only. I never read anything different in any sourcebook.

Right, the rules don't explicitly contradict your statement. Unfortunately they don't explicitly support the statement, either. There's no statement in the books that says whether targetting is checked only once, or continuously. Hence the vagueness, which is why we've got a thread on the subject.

 

[devilish]

I agree. But if you cast Magic Weapon on the staff, and then Shillelagh, the Shillelagh would fail, since the target is invalid at time of casting.

-Hyp.

Aha, that brings to mind the converse of our problem above.

Faced with a giant, what if you polymorphed it humanoid and
then cast hold person on it? Then you can get away with
casting what would be 5th level Sor/Wiz spell as a 3rd and 4th
level spells (only diff being 1 more saving throw?)?

No?
-D

 

[Hypersmurf]

Faced with a giant, what if you polymorphed it humanoid and
then cast hold person on it? Then you can get away with
casting what would be 5th level Sor/Wiz spell as a 3rd and 4th
level spells (only diff being 1 more saving throw?)?

Sure. At time of casting, he's a valid target.

Of course, "Target: Willing living creature touched" makes the Polymorph tricky to pull off.

-Hyp.

 

[AuraSeer]

Hey, what if you cast enlarge person on your buddy, then polymorph him into a Hill Giant? Is he size Large or Huge?

Or how about this: polymorph a Large hill giant into a human. Cast enlarge person. Dismiss the polymorph spell-- now he's a Huge hill giant.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Or how about this: polymorph a Large hill giant into a human. Cast enlarge person. Dismiss the polymorph spell-- now he's a Huge hill giant.

Works for me.

It's like a druid wildshaping, casting Animal Growth, and dismissing the wildshape.

-Hyp.