Hold Person vs Boots of Flying

[LokiDR]

Careful - not the same thing.

Controlling a flaming sphere requires a move-equivalent action, which is a measure of time and concentration.

Fly requires a move.

If you control a Flaming Sphere, you can take a 5' step. If you Fly, you can't, because you have "moved actual distance" in the round. If you Teleport, you can 5' step, because while your location has changed, you have not "moved actual distance" in a D&D-Technical sense.

-Hyp.

Move and move-equivelant are not exactly the same. You can do more in a move-equivelant than a move.

You have a point about move-equiv action statement. But that is not the same as proving that fly is the same as walking. It requires concentration as its only means of functioning. Where is any requirment other than that written?

 

[Krail Stromquism]

Oh geez you guys

As Ender_3 DM I will again step in here and give my moneys worth.

I stated before that I thought that the ambigous nature of the spells description allowed him to continue to move thru the FLY spell.

I did this for the following reasons:

#1- Hold Person, when you examine this spell, take a few things into account, firstly its the bread and butter spell for clerics, giving them a spell to use against those fighters and barbarians with huge Fort saves and weak and pathetic Will save,and has been thru all editions so I think they let it slide in better than it shouldve been, and it getting changed in 3.5.

Secondly, its a mind affectly spell, since the person is free to relocate himself thru mental ation only, we can safely say that the spell doesnt compel the person to stay in place in the vein of the Attration/Aversion spells. Plus since your autotomic body functions continue(breathing, blinking, heart beats, digestion of food and so on) that it simply puts your motor controls on "Pause" and your body more or less freezes in place.

Thirdly it states you cannot "take physical actions". The terms Move, Concentration, Compulsion are all getting scrutinized in this examination of this unique situation. Theres a huge difference between Moving, Movement and Move Actions, keep these terms in mind and we'll move on to #2.

#2- Fly, another poorly written spell. There are a lot of quirky game balance factors in the spell. First the Armor thing, whats that all about? Simple this makes it possible for Frost Giants to use the same Fly spell as a Halfling. If they assigned a specific weight amount per level that you could keep aloft then that puts a bunch of crappy unfun math into the game as well as scewing things against bigger creatures, thus it was simplified into the existing rule.

Also, the weird thing about Dispel Magic, ending the spells duration thus causing the flyer to float down to the ground and not plummet to his death. What can we garner from that? Well its saying that you cant use Dispel Magic to automatically kill Flyers. Ok, its says nothing about being held or stunned or just stopping "concentration" on the spell. what then? If you cant think straight do you plummet? what if soemone casts SLEEP! on the flyer? does he plummet? He stopped concetrating? It doesnt say anything about that. Whether you believed Fly is purely Mental or makes you sprout wings thus making it a Physical action the Sleeping character should rightfully plummet to his death. But he doesnt because they already set the precident of the Dispel Magic spell not being able to cause them to plummet thus any spell of equal or lesser level should not be able to do it either, especially from quirky descriptions or lack there of.

All that needs to happen is a few lines added to Clarify this "at mental direction of flyer". As it stands its, obviously, way to open for interpretation.

Ideally the Fly description will get clarified in 3.5 as to exactly when and where and how it can be used, Until then I'll continue to allow PCs and NPCs do move thru Fly even when Held.

I hope this clarifies a few things.

PS-I just used clarify far too many times.

Word

 

[LokiDR]

What do you mean 'irrevelant"? The whole point of this discussion is movement being limited by a hold person spell.

Are you moving with the Fly spell? If yes, then the Hold spell stops you. If you say No, then that means you are immune to Attacks of Opportunity for moving through threat areas. Even with Fly, you are "moving" through their threat area. And the Hold Person spell prevents moving. Regardless of whether you "control" the Fly spell mentally or physically, you are still "moving". If you do not consider this "moving" then use of the Fly spell would let you escape AOOs for going through someones threat area.

Not movement, physical movement. This as opposed to magical movement. Teleport and telekinisis still work as they fall under the "purely mental action" section of the hold person spell.

The movement and AoO thing is likewise flawed, as Hyp pointed out.

Okay, then tell me *where* it says that moving with a Fly spell IS mental action! I have been asking this so many times. Just show me *where* the rules state that moving with the Fly spell IS a mental action. Why are you refusing to do this? I am ALSO looking at the description of the Fly spell and it does NOT say anywhere that moving with this spell is a mental action.

There is no place that refers to fly by the spell as a mental or physical action. Where does it say it is a physical action? These aren't even defined terms.

So, we must look at the fly spell itself and determine if it is mental or physical in activation. You can attack and cast spells, so it seems your hands/arms are not used by the spell. You can carry your max load without losing speed. Armor slows you, but it is not explained how. There is no mention of ANY physical actions being required. A mental activity, concentration, is mentioned. Hence, I conclude fly is a mental action.

Okay now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. P.157 of the PH, "Compulsion: The spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works." P 73 of the DMG "A compulsion ovverides the subject's free will in some way or simply changes the way the subject's mind works."

That which the spell does not alter is not altered. Hold SPECIFICALLY allows mental actions. Hold does not mention anything about any change of thoughts. Compulsions in D&D do not by definition involve any specific thought patterns. With magic, just because you are acting some way doesn't mean you want to. You keep missing that.

You are getting way off track here. The game rules says nothing about "motor centers" or "spinal cords". You are going purely on speculation, opinion and interpretation and your side of the debate is not even staying within the boundaries of the game rules anymore.

Points for the quote out of context. I said that was one interpretation of the spell for the sake of understanding. One that worked with the rules, pointing out how your interpretation does not work.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

You need to wiggle your legs to concentrate, honest!

This thread is starting to make me laugh out loud.

Ask any person on the street, “Excuse me sir, would you classify the act of concentrating as either a Physical act or a Mental act?” And any person will respond, “Why, a Mental act, of course.”

The rules assume a basic level of comprehension, along the lines of “Fire burns you, don’t drink acid, you use your brain -and not your arm- to think, etc...”

And one more time for the benefit of those who forget (on a daily basis, it seems): the spell description for Fly says that it requires just as much concentration as walking.

Note the use of the word “requires”.

Please stop wasting bandwidth by posting demands for proof that concentrating on walking (or flying) is a purely mental act, and instead focus on debating something worthwhile, like whether or not Hold Person prohibits you from concentrating in order to make use of the Fly spell.

 

[LokiDR]

Re: Hold Person equals Complusion

Upon reading all the post on here. I just want to add my 2 cents. For myself I played Clerics for most of my D&D life from 1st to 3rd edition. My take on hold person is simple. when someone gets hit my a hold person you are unable to do anything, no moving, no mental powers no concentrating to try and moves your are unable to do anything for if you try the spell WILL compel you to do nothing. This is what I think people are not looking at. Yes you are able to cast spell that will allow movement (DD or Teleport). However when someone tries to move physically or mentally they spell compels you to do nothing. I heard that you may be able to use a standard action to fly, but for myself I disagree for the fact that anytime I used this spell, the person is not going anywhere. The spell to be transcends both physical and mental control over the person. Yes you are aware of your surrounding and can understand what people are saying but once again, when you want to "Move" (mentally or physically) the spell prevents you from doing this. So for myself if someone say that they want to fly, walk, crawl, swim. I say that when a person is held, they are held, if you cannot be held like this, then the spell is worthless.

Theodoric the Pious.

Wow, you read all that? I wrote half of it and I don't want to read it

How you play the spell is one thing, what the rules say is another. The rules specifically allow spells that have no components. Disallowing TK, levitate and other mental action spells is a house rule.

Even if the fly spell continues use, it is far from useless. On the contrary, it turns that person into buzzing insect, incapable of harming you. They can't attack, or cast most spells. I know clerics like their 2nd level save-or-die spell, but it just plain boring, as well as overpowered in that interpretation.

 

[Theodoric The Pious]

I disagree with the concept of mental action with fly and hold person. Once again, it does not matter what you are doing/thinking or believing. When you want to move for any reason, the spell will prevent you from moving. No long drawn out explaination. It is a spell that it supposed to stop you in your tracks. Yes maybe it should be a higher level spell, but I still hold my own and say that when the hold person is casted on someone, you are unable to do anything less you dispel, cast remove paralysis, or DD/Teleport. The spell is made to limit your ability to fight back, simple and to the point. If the spell says that you are able to use mental ability for movement then I would agree, but since it does not I will disagree that you can fly when held.

Theodoric the Pious.

 

[LokiDR]

Re: Oh geez you guys

As Ender_3 DM I will again step in here and give my moneys worth.

I stated before that I thought that the ambigous nature of the spells description allowed him to continue to move thru the FLY spell.

...

All that needs to happen is a few lines added to Clarify this "at mental direction of flyer". As it stands its, obviously, way to open for interpretation.

Ideally the Fly description will get clarified in 3.5 as to exactly when and where and how it can be used, Until then I'll continue to allow PCs and NPCs do move thru Fly even when Held.

I hope this clarifies a few things.

PS-I just used clarify far too many times.

Word

I agree that both spells are poorly worded and should be revised for 3.5. I don't agree that it is ambiguous, but we did come to the same conclusion.

I see significant balance problems with disallowing magical movement (as opposed to physical) because it means that hold person is utterly amazing spell for most of the game. All I have to do is make you fail a save (not hard against low-will save characters) and then CdG you. End of fighter. A fighter wearing a helm of teleportation should have a chance to get away. Creature with spell likes shouldn't die in droves to hold monster.

 

[LokiDR]

Re: You need to wiggle your legs to concentrate, honest!

This thread is starting to make me laugh out loud.

...

Please stop wasting bandwidth by posting demands for proof that concentrating on walking (or flying) is a purely mental act, and instead focus on debating something worthwhile, like whether or not Hold Person prohibits you from concentrating in order to make use of the Fly spell.

I don't know, this thread has kept me entertained for days.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: What dead debate? Their aint no dead debates here!

If you mean “taking a Move action”, both sentences are essentially correct.

However, does the PHB use the term “encumbered” interchangeably? That is, aside from “encumbered” as it is used in the movement section of the PHB, is the term also used in the section on armor. IDHTPHBIFOM, but I don’t think it does.

There are two types of encumbrance; encumbrance due to armor and encumbrance due to weight. Throughout the post, I was referring to encumbrance due to armor.

Yes, Telekinesis and Levitate are limited by weight, but they are not subject to the effects of encumbrance on speed.

The third sentence is vague. Do you mean physical movement (defined as swinging a sword, looking left and right, walking, running..) or do you mean “take a Move action”?

If you want to get finicky-technical, there is no such thing as a Move Action.

It's the main problem. There is a Standard Action that allows you to move your speed in conjunction with another action. There is a Double-Move Action that allows you to move twice your speed. There is a Run Action that allows you to move 4x (or whatever) your speed.

There is no Move Action - only "moving". Fly gives you a Fly speed. A Standard Action allows you to move using that Fly speed. If you are Held, you cannot move.

If you can't move, you can't move-using-your-Fly-speed.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Oh geez you guys

A fighter wearing a helm of teleportation should have a chance to get away.

A fighter using a helm of teleportation is not moving; he's using a Standard Action to Activate a Magic Item.

The Standard Action allows a move as well, but because he is Held, he cannot move.

A Held wizard could use the Cast a Spell Standard Action to cast a Still, Silent, Eschewed Fly spell.

The Standard Action allows a move as well - using his base speed or his Fly speed - but because he is Held, he cannot move.

-Hyp.