Hold Person vs Boots of Flying

[LokiDR]

I disagree with the concept of mental action with fly and hold person. Once again, it does not matter what you are doing/thinking or believing. When you want to move for any reason, the spell will prevent you from moving. No long drawn out explaination. It is a spell that it supposed to stop you in your tracks. Yes maybe it should be a higher level spell, but I still hold my own and say that when the hold person is casted on someone, you are unable to do anything less you dispel, cast remove paralysis, or DD/Teleport. The spell is made to limit your ability to fight back, simple and to the point. If the spell says that you are able to use mental ability for movement then I would agree, but since it does not I will disagree that you can fly when held.

Theodoric the Pious.

It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, when it comes to the rules. Levitate is clearly in, as it describes changing altitude as a mental action. Telekinesis control is also purely mental. I am only interested in what the rules allow. I can pepper to taste from there by house rules.

Thanks for your opinion though.

By the way, welcome to the boards, and say hi to Belbarrus for me. I'm glad you registered at EnWorld just for this debate.

 

[LokiDR]

Re: Re: What dead debate? Their aint no dead debates here!

There are two types of encumbrance; encumbrance due to armor and encumbrance due to weight. Throughout the post, I was referring to encumbrance due to armor.

Yes, Telekinesis and Levitate are limited by weight, but they are not subject to the effects of encumbrance on speed.

-Hyp.

Hyp, I expected more from you.

Where do you get the idea that there are different kinds of encumbrance, rather than different sources of encumbrence?

Also, the fly spell doesn't seem to anything to with encumbrance. It only mentions medium and heavy armor. Encumbrance might look plausible, but what about being tied up, carrying a ton of gear. The only thing stated is that certain armor slows you. Seems more of a quirk for game balance than evidence of physical movements during flight.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: What dead debate? Their aint no dead debates here!

Hyp, I expected more from you.

Where do you get the idea that there are different kinds of encumbrance, rather than different sources of encumbrence?

I'm away from my PHB, and the SRD culls all the descriptive text. But it goes into it in detail at the beginning of the chapter. Starting on the yellow page just before the table of Str vs Max Load.

-Hyp.

 

[Belbarrus]

Hopefully this will bring the debate to a close.

I went to the WotC web site's Customer Service page (went to www.wizards.com and click on 'Support'):

"Wizards of the Coast's Customer Service is now the best one-stop resource for all of your questions on Wizards of the Coast products. We now answer all questions pertaining to Rules Support, Software Support, and the Magic Online Store. This includes game rulings, order difficulties, technical support, tournament information, product replacement, and general questions."

I called their service line for Rules support: 1-206-624-0933 (outside the U.S.) (I am in Canada, Yes I paid LD charges ). I spoke with Matt Hyra of Wizards of the Coast who was answering questions about the Dungeons & Dragons rules clarifications.



Me:"Can a person continue to fly with the use of the spell while under the effect of a Hold Person spell?"

Matt:"You mean can they continue to coast along on momemtum or just keep flying in general?"

Me:"Can they continue to fly on their own? According to the Players Handbook and the Dungeon Masters guide description of being held, the target is 'frozen on the spot','cannot move, speak or take any physical action.' But, a held person can still execute purely mental actions. The description of Fly says that it requires as much concentration as walking and therefore seems to say that you can fly with just mental control."

<Matt put me on hold while he consulted with others>

Matt: "It is slightly more than mental action. There is still some physical coordination involved. What that means is you can keep yourself aloft when held, so you won't fall, but you cannot continue to move."

Me:"So a person under the effects of a Fly spell cannot continue to move while under the effects of a Hold spell?"

Matt:"Correct."


That should at least answer Ender_3's question.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Matt: "It is slightly more than mental action. There is still some physical coordination involved. What that means is you can keep yourself aloft when held, so you won't fall, but you cannot continue to move."

Me:"So a person under the effects of a Fly spell cannot continue to move while under the effects of a Hold spell?"

Matt:"Correct." [/B]

:sigh: WotC customer service strikes again. I've never once got an answer from those guys that jives with what's written in the books. I don't envy them their job, I'm sure it's a thankless and never easy task.

It's almost like they are trained to give middle of the road answers to whatever question you ask them.

I'm unwilling to accept that "there is still some physical coordination involved", when the spell itself doesn't even specify this as being required.

Granted, being held means you can't exactly do loops like Superman, but if you can see straight ahead and are already capable of mentally keeping yourself from falling, there's no reason you can't also mentally propel yourself forward.

 

[Theodoric The Pious]

For myself I am not here to support for rebute people on this post. I am here for myself for I have been playing a Cleric for many years. I am a person who feel that the rules are set in a way to balance the game. For myself Hold Person is the staple spell for the Cleric. Unless you get up to higher level, the Cleric does not have too many offensive spells for themselves therefore the Hold Person spell is something that I use often. I feel that letting someone fly when they are supposed to be helpless/immobile defeats the purpose of the spell, and it would lessen the impact on the games.
I hope people understand that sometimes fantasy does not equate with logic, and if is does not say it in the rule books, then it cannot be done, unless you make it a house rule.
This is my 2 cents.



Theodoric The Pious

 

[Hypersmurf]

I went to the WotC web site's Customer Service page...

Hopefully this will bring the debate to a close.

Heh!

"Wizards of the Coast's Customer Service is now the best one-stop resource for all of your questions on Wizards of the Coast products."

Heh!

Me:"So a person under the effects of a Fly spell cannot continue to move while under the effects of a Hold spell?"

Matt:"Correct."

Damn it! Customer Service agrees with me, I must be wrong

-Hyp.

 

[Ravellion]

God this thread is fun! I don't understand why people watch football if they can read threads like these instead!

Rav "Loki DR supporter"

 

[SnowDog]

LOL@Hyp

For simplicity's sake, in my game I would rule that the Hold spell prevents you from declaring a "move."

I'm sort of just reiterating what Hypersmurf is saying, but that's how I'd rule it. You don't drop to the ground or anything, but you are unable to declare to the DM "This turn, I will move 180 feet."

Flight is just another kind of motion, motion which is prohibited by the spell.

As such, I would rule that a "hold" spell would also stop:

- a creature able to fly intrinsically (i.e. Will-o-Wisp, except for spell immunity)
- an ethereal creature (able to "move in any direction (including up or down) at will" - DMG p76)
- A "gaseous form" creature
- An incorporeal creature (if one existed which could be held)
etc.

Just my two cents (and yes, I read every post in this thread ... yikes). I don't know that I'd call it a House Rule -- in my campaign, this would be filed under "Rules Interpretation"

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: LOL@Hyp

Just my two cents (and yes, I read every post in this thread ... yikes). I don't know that I'd call it a House Rule -- in my campaign, this would be filed under "Rules Interpretation"

Yup.

I'm not going to tell the Fly-while-Held people they're using a House Rule, but I'd get offended if they were to tell us we are

Same goes for AoOs-while-Invisible, or Stand-in-a-Blade-Barrier, or Magic-Missile-vs-Mirror-Image, or rusty-handaxe-vs-+5-longbow... when camps are divided as to what the correct meaning of a sentence (or tortuous construction of potentially-contradictory sentences from assorted sources) actually is, neither interpretation is a House Rule.

(I'd throw Boccob's-Freely-Book in there as well, but it has enough backing from the right sources to count as official, so I'll freely ( ) admit that I'm using a House Rule. A House Rule that fits the wording of the item better than the official rule, but a House Rule nonetheless )

-Hyp.