Holmes in my D&D: dealing with Perception+Insight optimization?

[Umbran]

Orc barbarians with greataxes might be a nice field leveler ...

"I deduce that the crime was committed by an orc barbarian named Thokk!"
"Goodness, Holmes, how did you manage to to piece that together?!?"
Holmes points behind Watson, who turns to look at the large, tusked figure looming behind him.
*Thokk!*

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yes and no. The DM is after all 'god' of his world, and has total omniscience and omnipotence. He should be able to act as a 'mastermind' of some sort. Admittedly you will find that you have your supergenius badguy do X and then later some player will say "that was stupid, why didn't he do Y!" and you facepalm, but so it goes. So, yeah, not the easiest kind of DMing, OTOH maybe not really harder than making a credible mystery? I'm not sure.

Mastermind plots are like onions, you can peel them away all day without getting to the center, and all it earns you is tears.

 

[Umbran]

OTOH maybe not really harder than making a credible mystery? I'm not sure.

I'm working up a campaign of Ashen Stars, which is GUMSHOE, and is built for Space Opera procedurals and mysteries. I have to admit I'm not yet sure how easy it is to come up with a string of such things - one offs are easy, but spanning a campaign is probably more difficult. We shall see how it goes.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm working up a campaign of Ashen Stars, which is GUMSHOE, and is built for Space Opera procedurals and mysteries. I have to admit I'm not yet sure how easy it is to come up with a string of such things - one offs are easy, but spanning a campaign is probably more difficult. We shall see how it goes.

Let us know how it goes

 

[LtPowers]

One thing I've found, particularly from running M:tA (in which supernatural senses were the lowest level powers, every mage started with several), is that you can create more and deeper mysteries by giving out all sorts of information than by successfully hiding things (which tends to lead to dead ends, anyway). You can positively jam the PCs with loads of information, much of it red herrings, or you can pull them into adventures with 'hooks' that no one else would even notice.

This might be the best advice I've read yet.

Holmes walks into a room. "There's a dead body on the floor. No footprints, no blood visible. The area rug is slightly askew, but the dust pattern indicates it's been that way for some time. The window is slightly ajar. There are mouse droppings in the corner below a spiderweb. The wallpaper is peeling in the opposite corner. The fireplace's embers are cold, and the bellows have several holes."

Which of those clues is relevant? Holmes has no idea. But he saw 'em all!


Powers &8^]

 

[Cyvris]

This is one reason I dislike "passive" Perception and Insight allowing players to "take a 10" with no constraints. All other skills in 4e require that the PCs take several minutes to "take a 10", but these don't. With that, one good way to break this a bit would be to have the PCs under stress. There is something preventing Holmes here from really focusing, so even his passive skills can't pick up on something. Might help a bit. This is just passive Perception too, which at least in my games, equals out to "you know something is here, now make a specific check".

Also, I find it weird that the replacement with Arcana isn't limited to "once per encounter", like Arcane Mutterings, which is something I've abused in a campaign before. That is certainly something I would refute with my player and discuss. If the source of the issue comes from a power, how is he using it as his passive check? Why does he have it for later checks in the same "encounter"? Again, going back to passive perception simply being savvy enough to know that something is off, but having to make a dedicated check to find it.

That just doesn't flow. Once the source of the replacement gets sorted, you can really start solving this problem. If Sorcerous Eyes is causing an issue, remember it's a limited power, so require an active roll instead of just allowing the PC to take a ten on it/use it as his passive check. Once you are past that, have him declare to be looking for specific things with his super Perception, not just auto scanning the room and seeing everything. This will actually force player to think about what he is doing and make follow up rolls. I'm guessing he's basing this on "Sherlock", which if you notice doesn't sweep the room and get everything on the first go, he often is following up on his first (or passive) insights. That too will help to burn up uses and give the rest of the party a chance to shine, since they will need to help him once he's burned his limited super perception/arcana replacement power.

 

[hirou]

Also, I find it weird that the replacement with Arcana isn't limited to "once per encounter", like Arcane Mutterings, which is something I've abused in a campaign before. That is certainly something I would refute with my player and discuss. If the source of the issue comes from a power, how is he using it as his passive check? Why does he have it for later checks in the same "encounter"? Again, going back to passive perception simply being savvy enough to know that something is off, but having to make a dedicated check to find it.

It's not a power, it's a feat, Arcane Vision.

EDIT: also, what you propose basically sums up to a lot of flustration for the player, which wouldn't be there if he wasn't so good at the skill he wanted to be good at. This is exactly what I'd like to avoid

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This is one reason I dislike "passive" Perception and Insight allowing players to "take a 10" with no constraints. All other skills in 4e require that the PCs take several minutes to "take a 10", but these don't. With that, one good way to break this a bit would be to have the PCs under stress. There is something preventing Holmes here from really focusing, so even his passive skills can't pick up on something. Might help a bit. This is just passive Perception too, which at least in my games, equals out to "you know something is here, now make a specific check".

The problem is that everyone can perceive things, and it doesn't take any special effort to do so at some level. Even unobservant people see what is around them and gain considerable information from their senses at some baseline level. That's all passive Perception simulates. Its necessary in order for the Stealth system to work and in general to decide things like surprise or who sees what when you aren't searching. Mechanically its necessary to prevent the old "we look everywhere" issue, which either required constant 'mock' rolls or gave out a lot of clues as the DM had to ask for a check when it mattered, provoking rerolls and lack of suspense. It also slowed the game a lot.

The option of course always exists to have penalties when the PCs are pelting down a hallway at full speed, or in some other nasty situation where they just aren't going to be really looking around carefully. Checks are also appropriate in these situations, even Holmes can miss something in that case (such as combat).

Also, I find it weird that the replacement with Arcana isn't limited to "once per encounter", like Arcane Mutterings, which is something I've abused in a campaign before. That is certainly something I would refute with my player and discuss. If the source of the issue comes from a power, how is he using it as his passive check? Why does he have it for later checks in the same "encounter"? Again, going back to passive perception simply being savvy enough to know that something is off, but having to make a dedicated check to find it.

Another option here is structured search, where the player can get some general information passively but MUST actually engage with the environment to learn the special stuff. You can see there's an old desk in the corner, but unless you actually search the thing you can't find the false back on the drawer that conceals the deed to the Old Abbey.

I agree though, an unlimited replacement seems odd. 4e feats are not always consistent this way however, and something like an Encounter utility power will have a 5 minute duration and can easily be recharged, so it may effectively be almost always-on.

That just doesn't flow. Once the source of the replacement gets sorted, you can really start solving this problem. If Sorcerous Eyes is causing an issue, remember it's a limited power, so require an active roll instead of just allowing the PC to take a ten on it/use it as his passive check. Once you are past that, have him declare to be looking for specific things with his super Perception, not just auto scanning the room and seeing everything. This will actually force player to think about what he is doing and make follow up rolls. I'm guessing he's basing this on "Sherlock", which if you notice doesn't sweep the room and get everything on the first go, he often is following up on his first (or passive) insights. That too will help to burn up uses and give the rest of the party a chance to shine, since they will need to help him once he's burned his limited super perception/arcana replacement power.

Right.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It's not a power, it's a feat, Arcane Vision.

EDIT: also, what you propose basically sums up to a lot of flustration for the player, which wouldn't be there if he wasn't so good at the skill he wanted to be good at. This is exactly what I'd like to avoid

Weird, the Compendium lists no such feat.

 

[LtPowers]

All other skills in 4e require that the PCs take several minutes to "take a 10", but these don't.

This is not true. There's no such rule about taking 10. You're thinking of taking 20, perhaps?

All that taking 10 requires is that the character be unhurried and not distracted, and the task should be "mundane". The rule is in place to allow an average human to perform routine DC 10 tasks without fear of failure. Taking 10 is why even weaklings don't routinely fall off of ladders (DC 0), and why average humans can swim calm waters (DC 10) without starting to drown twice a minute. It's why you don't need to roll to hear two people talking normally 10 feet away (DC 10). It doesn't take any extra time, nor should the result of taking 10 be any different from the result of a roll of 10 on a D20.

The "mundane" clause, though, might give you an out. When dealing with extraordinary PCs at paragon levels, the tasks they face are rarely "mundane". The book doesn't precisely define the term, but I think you might be justified in setting a DC threshold above which a task doesn't really qualify as "mundane". DC 20 or 25 would probably be the spot -- something an average human wouldn't have any chance of achieving without assistance. It might be better to do it case-by-case, but even using a DC threshold as a guideline would provide some measure of additional DM control.


Powers &8^]