Holmes in my D&D: dealing with Perception+Insight optimization?

[hirou]

Weird, the Compendium lists no such feat.

Oops, my bad, it's Sorcerous Vision.

 

[Cyvris]

Okay, I've pulled up the language of the feat.

"Whenever you would make a Perception or Insight check, you ca make an Arcana check instead."

Yep, I hate this feat already and would probably ban it from my table. Practically all other skill substations in 4e are encounter powers or limited in some other fashion. That being said, RAI seems to me that it should not apply to passive Perception or Insight. To me it seems to be saying that when you make a check (ie roll) you can use it, not just as a passive Spider Sense sort of thing.

 

[LtPowers]

That being said, RAI seems to me that it should not apply to passive Perception or Insight. To me it seems to be saying that when you make a check (ie roll) you can use it, not just as a passive Spider Sense sort of thing.

Using a passive score is still a check, based on the wording of the rule. They're even called "Passive checks".


Powers &8^]

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Okay, I've pulled up the language of the feat.

"Whenever you would make a Perception or Insight check, you ca make an Arcana check instead."

Yep, I hate this feat already and would probably ban it from my table. Practically all other skill substations in 4e are encounter powers or limited in some other fashion. That being said, RAI seems to me that it should not apply to passive Perception or Insight. To me it seems to be saying that when you make a check (ie roll) you can use it, not just as a passive Spider Sense sort of thing.

Well, I don't know what RAW is there, even a passive check is still a 'check' isn't it? You could obviously make it a 'power-like' text easily enough, just say "once per day" or "once per encounter" which I do agree is probably more balanced against other options. I'd say once per encounter would be OK, its a paragon tier feat after all.

 

[MoutonRustique]

Or you could "lock" it behind time constraints : at-will use, but it takes a minute to do. (Or even just a standard action!)

That removes the greatest offender (passive checks) and also offers a form of built-in fluff : you're using your mystical senses and whatnot.

But, yeah, as is, by RAW... it's pretty much auto-on. On the other hand - as always, RAW is the base upon which to build.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Or you could "lock" it behind time constraints : at-will use, but it takes a minute to do. (Or even just a standard action!)

That removes the greatest offender (passive checks) and also offers a form of built-in fluff : you're using your mystical senses and whatnot.

But, yeah, as is, by RAW... it's pretty much auto-on. On the other hand - as always, RAW is the base upon which to build.

Well, its a touchy subject with a player that ALREADY has built his character around this concept, so it seems a little late, though that entirely depends on the player. Anyway, even if its always on there's still plenty of suggestions that have already been made about how things can be interesting.

 

[Manbearcat]

Anyway, even if its always on there's still plenty of suggestions that have already been made about how things can be interesting.

Yeah, I'm still not seeing the force behind the issue outlined in the lead post. So far I've run games with PCs that automatically pass medium DCs for Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, History, Insight Nature, Perception, Religion, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery. Further, in that swath of those PCs, some of them that auto-pass those checks at the Hard DC (or pass on anything but a 1 and get to roll 2d20)! Further still, of those PCs, a few of them sub Arcana for Diplomacy, Intimidate, Stealth as an encounter power (which is pretty much all you need for a Skill Challenge) and one Rogue subbed Streetwise at-will for Arcana, History, Intelligence, or Religion in a familiar urban environment (Secrets of the City) which half the game took place in!

Having PCs with extremely high skills, augment powers (rerolls, power bonuses, et al), etc should be a common occurrence in the 4e experience! It is a feature, not a bug. It is trivially easy to (a) spollight their awesomeitude while still (b) framing them into exciting conflict that challenges them in other ways.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Havent read the whole thread, just the opening post.

My advice is: that combo is broken, and you ought to have a chat to the player about it. Best of luck!

 

[Vicaring]

One of my players made Sherlock Holmes-like PC...

How would you challenge Holmes?

Even Sherlock Holmes had a Moriarty.

Become Moriarty.

Or, if you don't want to do that, then just DM your game like normal, and let the character see all those things. It really shouldn't be game-breaking. Just because a character has the Perception that automatically lets him spot clues, does not mean that he understands what that clue means. Similarly, a high Insight will let him determine that somebody is lying, and maybe even determine the motivation for the lying, but it doesn't mean that the character knows what the truth is.

Look at it this way: this is an opportunity for you, as a DM, to expand your horizons, and take your adventures to places you would not have considered if that player hadn't created that character.

 

[Tony Vargas]

"Whenever you would make a Perception or Insight check, you ca make an Arcana check instead."

Practically all other skill substations in 4e are encounter powers or limited in some other fashion.

That made me wonder about it, as well. But, it was in Arcane Power, plenty of time to errata it ... :shrug: