Hombrew Settings; 11 Base Classes, Which Ones Would You Choose?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Cleric: Cloistered variety only, PHB cleric is too powerful.
Fighter: Add in some marshal abilities to represent their position as military leaders.

I like both of those ideas. That may make it to my list of permanent/semi-permanent homebrew rules.

 

[Khuxan]

O4. Choose classes easy to play.

I like this goal for game design. If I were to choose 11 classes based on this criterium (and other criteria, of course, such as role and power source), I'd go with those listed below. I'm interested in your opinions - if you don't agree with one of my choices, which class would you replace it with?

Warriors: I'd let warriors and experts choose feats from Tome of Battle if they wanted added complexity.

• Barbarian: Fairly simple to grasp and easy to play.
• Fighter: Diverse and not hugely complicated.
• Paladin: Again, not a complicated class.

Experts:

• Rogue: A class with few difficult abilities to keep track of, and one that can hold its own in combat.
• Scout: A class that fills a different niche to the rogue, but still a viable one.

Priests:

• Shapeshifter druid: The shapeshifting options simplify and balance wild shape to a great extent.
• Favoured soul: Simpler than the cleric, and more balanced besides.
• Marshal: Normally not what I'd consider a "simple" class, but it's the only priest with no spellcasting.

Mages:

• Warlock: An obvious choice.
• Dragonfire Adept: Simple as the warlock, but with a different flavour.

Cross-Overs:

• Dragon Shaman: A character that can fulfill a number of roles in combat.

 

[Runestar]

While it is true that the fighter can fill in a variety of fighting archetypes, I have doubts as to whether he can do it competently (they appear to make poor finesse fighters, IMO). Thus, I would replace the melee classes with the 3 martial adepts. Between them, they should be able to simulate a variety of core classes, such as the monk, ninja, paladin, fighter, swashbuckler, samurai, blaster warlock, possibly even barb.

Tome of Battle Fighting Styles [Archive] - Wizards Community

Here, ToB can be used to replicate a variety of fighting styles, for those who think that Bo9s is all about teleporting and throwing fireballs.

 

[Khuxan]

Here, ToB can be used to replicate a variety of fighting styles, for those who think that Bo9s is all about teleporting and throwing fireballs.

Since you mentioned TOB, I might as well post the 11 classes I've been toying with: a purely Sublime Way campaign. As well as listing the role I expect each class to fill, I've included the class I see the Sublime class as replacing:

Warriors

• Warblade (fighter)
• Crusader (paladin)
• Swordsage (monk)
• Berserker (barbarian)
• Sublime Ranger (ranger)

Priests

• Battle Chaplain (cleric)
• Marshal (druid)

Experts

• Assassin (rogue)
• Bard (bard)

Mages

• Blade Scholar (wizard)
• Marksman (sorcerer)

Few of the classes match up very well with their PH 1 counterparts, but I think you could play quite a satisfying campaign with these 11 classes.

 

[Arkhandus]

What do you mean by "vanilla"? If you mean it in the sense of "generic flavor" then even D&D's faux-Medieval isn't really vanilla, as it has strong assumptions about how setting elements such as magic work.

Umm.... Core D&D is vanilla fantasy. D&D is the earliest, most basic fantasy RPG. A vanilla fantasy setting is anything roughly similar to core D&D from Chainmail to 3.5. And anything similar to Tolkien, or the Conan stories. Since those, and D&D which has itself become a defining element of fantasy over time, are the basic framework upon which so much is based.

Anything that deviates more than a bit from the generic fantasy flavor of D&D/Tolkien/Conan etc. (not sure if I'd consider Dying Earth to be in the same league, but it did have a significant influence on D&D at least) isn't vanilla. Swordsages, akashics, soulknives, psions, ritual warriors, and such aren't vanilla.

Seems that a lotta folks confused the OP's request with something regarding homebrewed classes, when he was just asking about 11 classes for a homebrewed setting, classes taken from d20/OGL sources.

My list would look fairly different if I weren't thinking along the lines of a vanilla setting. Like so:
1. Crusader for the holy warrior sort.
2. Warblade for the skilled and physically powerful warrior sort.
3. Swordsage for the clever and tricky warrior sort.
4. Dragon Shaman for the support role.
5. Duskblade for the arcane warrior position.
6. Eldritch Weaver for the main arcane caster role.
7. Priest of the Celestial Spheres for the main divine caster role.
8. Witch as the elemental and blended caster type.
9. Psychic as the psionic type.
10. Akashic as the skillmonkey.
11. Totem Warrior as the wilderness warrior type.

 

[Khuxan]

Umm.... Core D&D is vanilla fantasy. D&D is the earliest, most basic fantasy RPG. A vanilla fantasy setting is anything roughly similar to core D&D from Chainmail to 3.5. And anything similar to Tolkien, or the Conan stories. Since those, and D&D which has itself become a defining element of fantasy over time, are the basic framework upon which so much is based.

Anything that deviates from the generic fantasy flavor of D&D/Tolkien/Conan etc. (not sure if I'd consider Dying Earth to be in the same league, but it did have a significant influence on D&D at least) isn't vanilla. Swordsages, akashics, soulknives, psions, ritual warriors, and such aren't vanilla.

I don't agree with either of your statements - that Tolkein or Conan represent "vanilla fantasy" or can even be lumped together with Dungeons and Dragons, or that the classes you rattled off aren't vanilla fantasy.

Spellcasting rangers, spellcasting holy warriors, spellcasting singers, mystical unarmed fighters, these aren't found anywhere in Tolkein nor - to the best of my knowledge - in Conan. Gandalf does not look like a sorcerer and certainly nothing like a wizard, though perhaps he is a cleric and Radagast the brown a druid - though I've never heard of Radagast turning into a bear. The overt and explosive, yet carefully prepared, magic of Dungeons and Dragons is as alien to Tolkein as crystals and meditation are.

Swordsages have plenty of non-magical powers along with their small suite of supernatural ones. A wandering friar or a woodsman could easily be represented by that class: in fact, it is certainly a more appropriate fit than the cleric or ranger. Akashics have a subtle magic - a sort of witchcraft - that seems much more fitting for medieval Europe or Middle-Earth than meteor swarms and polar rays. Soulknives fill a spellblade niche that - while absent in Tolkein - is quite common in other fantasy fiction. As for the psion, it can be easily reflavoured, and there are psychic powers in the fairly vanilla Deryni series by Katherine Kerr. As for ritual warriors, they are completely non-magical and seem to best fit the duellist archetype.

If I were creating a "vanilla fantasy" setting, I'd stay far away from the D&D core of blaster wizards, laser clerics and bear-warrior druids.

 

[Arkhandus]

Except that many of those things exist in CORE D&D, which is, as I said, one of the main aspects of vanilla fantasy these days. There are craploads of stories and games based on D&D with just a new veneer or a few cosmetic changes, or just minor differences. OBVIOUSLY D&D is different from Tolkien's work and the Conan stories and such, but they are all major icons of fantasy literature/gaming that are widely recognized. Ergo they are vanilla fantasy. A generic fantasy game or setting is likely to resemble either core D&D, Tolkien's stuff, or Conan.

Swordsages use mystical and physical powers that go beyond normal abilities and what folks would generally expect magic to be like. Fighters aren't nearly so strange or unrealistic. A wandering friar or woodsman wouldn't be expected to conjure up a blast of flame just with a gesture, or to teleport between shadows with a gesture, or shatter a boulder with just a punch. Swordsages do just that sometimes, right from the low-levels. Akashics glean information from the collective consciousness or a similar concept; which is rather sci-fi or otherwise wierd to a traditional D&D setting. The psion is wierd and sci-fi in style.

I am not saying they are stupid or don't belong in D&D, just that they aren't vanilla fantasy in style.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Swordsages, akashics, soulknives, psions, ritual warriors, and such aren't vanilla.

First of all, there really isn't any one type of fantasy that could or should be called vanilla fantasy- after all, some of the classes you eliminate- like the swordsage- are not vanilla only because they don't fit in with typical Eurocentric fantasy themes. They do, however, fit in with the "vanilla fantasy" of many Eastern cultures...whose populations outnumber us.

If we must deem anything "vanilla fantasy", based on global demographics, it should contain swordsages, monks, samurai, mounted archers and so forth, with Oni, kitsune, and a host of Chinese and Indian spirits as well.

Beyond that, ritual warriors are a staple of both Western and Eastern myth traditions. Mechanically the Psion is one of the best representations of the way many traditions describe their mages- only the terminology seems strange and sci-fi esque, despite being based in Greek and Roman concepts. Soulknives? While not common, it isn't exactly unusual to find stories of warriors who focus supernatural energies through their weapons- again, only the terminology is odd.

 

[Arkhandus]

First of all, there really isn't any one type of fantasy that could or should be called vanilla fantasy- after all, some of the classes you eliminate- like the swordsage- are not vanilla only because they don't fit in with typical Eurocentric fantasy themes. They do, however, fit in with the "vanilla fantasy" of many Eastern cultures...whose populations outnumber us.

If we must deem anything "vanilla fantasy", based on global demographics, it should contain swordsages, monks, samurai, mounted archers and so forth, with Oni, kitsune, and a host of Chinese and Indian spirits as well.

Beyond that, ritual warriors are a staple of both Western and Eastern myth traditions. Mechanically the Psion is one of the best representations of the way many traditions describe their mages- only the terminology seems strange and sci-fi esque, despite being based in Greek and Roman concepts. Soulknives? While not common, it isn't exactly unusual to find stories of warriors who focus supernatural energies through their weapons- again, only the terminology is odd.

What you describe for the soulknife would actually be a Mage Blade. -_- Likewise, instead of a psion, you'd be describing a sorcerer with spell points from Unearthed Arcana, or something from a non-D&D book, because psions don't quite fit that well as a substitute for mythical wizards (no chanting, components, studying, or anything that would resemble common beliefs about magic traditions). Like I said, I'm not dissing them, I like them, I just don't think they qualify as "vanilla" fantasy fare.

And, I don't know about you, but I've NEVER heard of a fantasy RPG from the east that has come out here in the west, let alone become well-known and associated with fantasy gaming by the general geek-populace. I suppose BESM, Bubblegum Crisis, or something like that (which I've only seen once in a store) might possibly have come from the east, but AFAIK they're just productions of western companies. MIND YOU, I'm not counting video games for this purpose because they're not RPGs in the same sense as pen-and-paper RPGs, they just have some limited RPG elements in their design. Obviously video game RPGs from Japan are big even out here, but they're not particularly relevant to this kind of discussion (given that it's about vanilla fantasy settings for a PnP game).

D&D, Vampire, Palladium, GURPS, Earthdawn, MERP, Rolemaster, etc. are all, as far as I know, western creations. Could be wrong about a few, but really, the majority, if not all, fantasy RPGs that are widely-known and recognized are NOT eastern in design. Sure, there are a lot more folks out east (and yet, how many of them are roleplayers? I think the percentage in China and India is rather lower than it is here in the west), but that doesn't mean all of their stuff has spread outside their borders, let alone gained mass recognition outside their own borders. And of course, the majority of those people don't own or play RPGs, and probably aren't even particularly aware of them in the first place.

The point is, western fantasy is what folks across much of the world are familiar with. Joe Shmoe on the street has never even heard of the Ramayana or anything else pertaining to eastern myths and legends beyond the few common words thrown around, such as Buddhism, and their comprehension of those words' meaning is generally limited at best. Joe Shmoe, though, has most likely heard of Dungeons & Dragons, the Lord of the Rings, Conan the Barbarian, or Merlin and Morgan LeFay and the tale of King Arthur's Court at least. No eastern RPG or novel has that kind of broad recognition; even if half of China's population knew about a particular Chinese RPG (and there's no way most of them would; too many rural villagers in poverty), it would still be unknown across the rest of the world, beyond a few geeks here and there who have a particular interest in Chinese RPGs and some way to learn about them (probably by learning Chinese first...).

That's all I'm saying. To the common man, let alone the common geek, fantasy fare like D&D, Conan, Merlin, Lord of the Rings, etc. are what's recognized and what immediately springs to mind (and to geeks, that's generally what's vanilla to them, because anime and such often seems cooler and more exotic to them). If it's too obscure, it certainly isn't vanilla fantasy, because it isn't common enough or bland enough for people to consider it plain and ordinary. Sure, it might be in one single country, but that's irrelevant to those of us living in 99.99% of the world's countries.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What you describe for the soulknife would actually be a Mage Blade.

Yes and no. The Mage Blade doesn't actually channel his power directly through his weapon, he is able to cast spells while using his blade- his athame- to integrate the gestural components of spellcrafting with combat maneuvers. Soulknives merely focus destructive energies that they muster into a weaponlike form.

Likewise, instead of a psion, you'd be describing a sorcerer with spell points from Unearthed Arcana, or something from a non-D&D book, because psions don't quite fit that well as a substitute for mythical wizards (no chanting, components, studying, or anything that would resemble common beliefs about magic traditions).

While the Sorc w/SP is also quite good, but for ASF, its nearly indistinguishable from the psionic manifesters in terms of its actual mechanics.

Many mages of myth and legend merely gestured and what they willed happened. How many times have you seen or read of TK effects being generated with but a glance? Ditto enchantment/charm effects. Except in Vance's Dying Earth books, many fictional/legendary mages wielding destructive energies directly at their foes did so at will- much like the Warlock...and the psionic classes.

And, I don't know about you, but I've NEVER heard of a fantasy RPG from the east that has come out here in the west, let alone become well-known and associated with fantasy gaming by the general geek-populace.

I didn't say one had.

I'm just saying that if one looks at the bulk of mystic/legendary/supernatural literature of ancient to modern origins, most of it is of Eastern origin. Just because very little of it gets released or read in the West doesn't change this. In addition, many of what we think of as Western pieces of fiction have their roots in Eastern mythologies.

IOW, statistically speaking, generic "vanilla fantasy" isn't necessarily Western in flavor.

The point is, western fantasy is what folks across much of the world are familiar with.

No, western fantasy GAMES are what folks across much of the world are familiar with.

I'd wager that our Eastern bretheren in the hobby extensively customize their games to reflect their own myth and fiction traditions. A FR campaign played in Djakarta is most likely going to be radically different than one you'd find in the USA or Europe.

No eastern RPG or novel has that kind of broad recognition;

...In the West.

To the common man, let alone the common geek,

To the common WESTERN man, let alone the common WESTERN geek.

You're still assuming that because something is the predominant game in the USA (D&D), that this is universal. Its not. Das Schwarze Auge is the best selling RPG in Germany, for instance. In Japan, as I recall, native product Sword World RPG and GURPS lead D&D. D&D is, though, #1 in worldwide sales.

But even though its the #1 seller, that doesn't mean that players in Asia are using it the same way we in the USA are. Players in Japan, China and Korea might axe all the Norse, Greco/Roman and other Western influences.

Do they? I don't know- but I'm not making the assumption that what I think of as fantasy is the universal standard. Its the predominant Western standard, but the global reality may be somewhat different.

And odds are decent that the actual statistical norm has a slightly more oriental feel to it than you might expect.