Hombrew Settings; 11 Base Classes, Which Ones Would You Choose?

[Shin Okada]

Well, one of actual Asian (Japanese) floating on this board, I don't see why why someone thinks Psionic system is suitable for simulating oriental-occultists.

Asia is a wide area and each countries and areas in Asia has their own history of occultism. But at least, both Chinese Taoism-based occultists and Japanese Shinto/Shugendo/Buddhism/Onmyodo-based magic users in legends and fictions (even those in recent Mangas and Animations) tend to use some motions, magical or religious words, tools, rituals, etc. for using their magic powers. Even Magical Girls in Japanese shojo-manga and animation shows typically use magical battons and magic words.

For me, psionic system looks more like magic users in 4-color American Comics, if not people with psionic or super powers in Science Ficitons and cartoons.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

Umm.... Core D&D is vanilla fantasy. D&D is the earliest, most basic fantasy RPG. A vanilla fantasy setting is anything roughly similar to core D&D from Chainmail to 3.5. And anything similar to Tolkien, or the Conan stories. Since those, and D&D which has itself become a defining element of fantasy over time, are the basic framework upon which so much is based.

I didn't ask what vanilla was, only what the OP meant by using it. Further more I never suggested D&D wasn't vanilla, only that if the OP meant "generic" as in having few assumptions than even D&D has quite a few assumptions about how its worlds work.

 

[Arkhandus]

If nothing else, "vanilla" in this thread's/forum's/website's context would mean vanilla D&D. Which means something like core D&D and its core settings (Greyhawk/Blackmoor, Forgotten Realms, or the Known World/Mystara, depending on edition). Ergo my leaning towards stuff that didn't differ too drastically from the style of the core classes in mechanics and description, with my original list of 11 classes on page 1.

Danny, you're still thinking of mere numbers (within merely two countires/half a continent or less, out of hundreds or so/5 or 6+ other inhabited continents and numerous islands) and not breadth, and I've repeatedly mentioned breadth/width, not numbers alone. While it's possible there are more roleplayers in China or India than in the rest of the world combined, it is western fantasy stuff like D&D, Lord of the Rings, etc. that is most widely recognizeable AFAIK. Even though some of us geeks are aware of a few eastern RPGs and European RPGs, I don't think any of them has the breadth of name recognition that D&D and such does.

Somehow I doubt the majority of EN Worlders or the majority of people this thread is relevant to are Chinese or Indian. What they consider to be vanilla fantasy fare would still be unknown to 99% of the rest of the world, and is thus irrelevant to this topic because most of us are likely to be completely unaware of those games/settings/whatever. As it is, I know only of two or three European RPGs, and the only eastern ones I've ever heard of are the one or two mentioned in this thread. And only aware of those because of their mention here (actually, I do recall seeing mention of Sword World RPG before on the internet, but only once before so it wasn't something that sprang readily to mind).

Something is not vanilla (plain, ordinary) to a group when it's exotic or unknown to most of the people in that group. Do you think of eastern RPGs as boring and ordinary, or do you think of RAW core D&D with its standard flavor to be ordinary, boring, or less exciting/flavorful/whatever? Many folks think the latter these days, and that's where many other games have gotten customers from (and what so very many groups got their D&D houserules from). Does eastern fantasy fare, be it games, movies, TV shows, novels, comic books, or what-have-you, seem more interesting to you than Tolkien, Conan, D&D novels, American comic books, etc.? If so, then guess what, old-school western fantasy is vanilla to you.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to explain my reasoning.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If nothing else, "vanilla" in this thread's/forum's/website's context would mean vanilla D&D.

That can't be true, because vanilla D&D is just the base PHB classes and nothing more- everything else would be exotic and this thread would be utterly pointless.

(As in, moreso than your typical internet thread.)

Danny, you're still thinking of mere numbers

Yes and no- my position is that there really isn't any such thing as vanilla fantasy in general, not without modifiers like "Western" or "Eastern." What is, for the sake of argument, "vanilla Western fantasy" is not nor can it be "vanilla Eastern fantasy", and vice versa. There is little or no overlap in the resultant Venn diagram.

This brings us back to what I said in the opening statement of this sub-discussion:

First of all, there really isn't any one type of fantasy that could or should be called vanilla fantasy- after all, some of the classes you eliminate- like the swordsage- are not vanilla only because they don't fit in with typical Eurocentric fantasy themes.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to explain my reasoning.

I understand.

 

[Arkhandus]

Well, the thing is, there's a lot of classes and stuff out there that are similar enough in theme and mechanics to the core classes, so there's a lot of stuff that fits. Even warlocks might be close enough to sorcerers in theme and ability to be vanilla-like. While martial adepts, for instance, differ quite a lot from other warriors and yet most of their abilities are supposed to still be nonmagical, so they're pretty strange by comparison (and rather different in theme and style from any core class). Psionics, likewise, are rather different from core magic. Whereas marshals, warmages, knights, ninjas, swashbucklers, dread necromancers, etc. and even factotums or dragon shamans are probably close enough to core classes in theme and mechanics to be considered vanilla-like. Likewise with many other WotC classes and third-party classes.

I'm just saying that anything reasonably similar in theme and execution to the core stuff is probably "vanilla" in the D&D context. That doesn't make them boring, at least not to me and many others, but it does mean they're easily substitutable for core classes.

 

[Khuxan]

Well, the thing is, there's a lot of classes and stuff out there that are similar enough in theme and mechanics to the core classes, so there's a lot of stuff that fits. Even warlocks might be close enough to sorcerers in theme and ability to be vanilla-like. While martial adepts, for instance, differ quite a lot from other warriors and yet most of their abilities are supposed to still be nonmagical, so they're pretty strange by comparison (and rather different in theme and style from any core class). Psionics, likewise, are rather different from core magic. Whereas marshals, warmages, knights, ninjas, swashbucklers, dread necromancers, etc. and even factotums or dragon shamans are probably close enough to core classes in theme and mechanics to be considered vanilla-like. Likewise with many other WotC classes and third-party classes.

I'm just saying that anything reasonably similar in theme and execution to the core stuff is probably "vanilla" in the D&D context. That doesn't make them boring, at least not to me and many others, but it does mean they're easily substitutable for core classes.

I think you're overestimating the non-vanilla nature of the martial adepts and underestimating the non-vanilla nature of other classes. Even if we accept that the swordsage is non-vanilla, the warblade and the crusader are as vanilla as they come. The crusader is a competent paladin, and the warblade a competent fighter. Sure, they exhibit some powers considered magical or wuxia - but then, so do high-level fighters. The ability to sunder very hard materials or move very quickly is not unique to the martial adepts by any means, and the idea of mythic heroes cutting through doors seems much more vanilla than a sorcerer firing purple energy once every six seconds or a man that has scaly skin and can breathe fire.

 

[Arkhandus]

A low-level Warblade can shrug off almost any magical effect or affliction with Iron Heart Surge, without difficulty. Odin himself couldn't stop a low-level Warblade for even a few seconds with the eldritch secrets he sacrificed his eye for, short of just stabbing that Warblade or something. A mid-level Warblade can, in seconds, recover from an injury that nearly killed him in one stroke, with Iron Heart Endurance (I mean an attack that takes him from full to 0 HP).

A Crusader certainly has the excuse of some divinity granting his powers, admittedly. But Steely Resolve is only extraordinary, and yet it's similar to Iron Heart Endurance in its ability to save him or her from an attack that might've cut him in half, but instead gets its damage delayed 1 round while the Crusader tries to use a healing strike before he actually drops dead.... Or he could be Disintegrated, but nonmagically delay the damage long enough to act one more time before he turns to dust.... Still, you're right that the Crusader is certainly a decent enough "vanilla" paladin type.