D&D 5E [Homebrew] − Rethinking the Ability Scores

[Yaarel]

This thread is a thought experiment for what an ‘ideal’ ability score system might look like. I am motivated by interesting things that other gaming systems have done, and by possible solutions to perennial issues. I also want to see what others are thinking about the ability score system.

Cypher made size (what it calls ‘Might’) an ability. This seems useful. A Large character simply has a high ‘Size’ score, and a Small character a low score. So the advantages of Large size, including reach, are balanced by the need to invest resources to boost Size, at the cost of having less to spend on the other abilities. Possibly, a Size bonus of +0 to +1 is Small; +2 to +3 is Medium; and +4 to +5 is Large. Or something like that. For example, the Ogre is Large and has a bonus of +4 (score 19). The Mountain and Hill Dwarves are unusual, in that they are shorter but with higher Size. They have more mass, being extremely broad and stout, and also have a nonhuman metabolism that results in their body having hard stone-like density. Size corresponds to the weightclass of combat sports, where being big and having long arms reach are decisively advantageous. Generally Size corresponds to the height and weight of a human athletic build, but sometimes it is better to extend it to muscle mass in cases where a person is tall but emaciated or obese, or so on.

An other interesting idea is how AGE decouples the attack bonus from the damage bonus, and assigns them to separate abilities. Here in this thread, the Ogre might have a high score in Size thus deal heavy damage if it hits, but have a low score in agile Athletics, thus making clumsy attempts to hit.

Hopefully each ability is equally useful for combat mechanics. So, they are balanced as good options for a game that tends to feature combat. There should also be minimal overlap, so it is clear which ability applies and which do not, in any situation.

Constitution is a passive boring ability, that active abilities can cover. And so on.

So far, this is an ability set that I am exploring.



Ability Fivesome
Athletics: Can you do something because you are ‘quick and sporty’?
Size: Can you do something because you are ‘big and tough’?
Perception: Can you do something because you are ‘sensorial and surgical’?
Intelligence: Can you do something because you are ‘knowledgeable and intuitive’?
Charm: Can you do something because you are ‘social and willful’?



Athletics
Body mobility, coordination, jump, tumble, speed, fitness, stamina, gross motor skills.
• Attack bonus to melee attack
• Attack bonus to thrown weapon
• Attack bonus to unarmed attack
• Attack bonus to grapple versus Size
• Attack bonus to shove versus Size
• Initiative bonus
• Gymnastic check to jump, climb
• Gymnastic check to catch from falling, or to roll landing after falling
• Gymnastic tumble movement thru hostile space
• Gymnastic check to balance, during movement or keeping still
• Gymnastic check to perform a stunt
• Bonus to charge attack
• Reflex save to dodge to avoid hit
• Quick draw
• Sleight of hand (pickpocketing, distracting audience while finessing a legerdemain trick)
• AC bonus if no armor, or light or medium

Size
Size, brute force, and toughness.
• Long reach in melee combat
• Damage bonus to melee attack
• Damage bonus to unarmed attack
• Damage bonus to thrown weapon (but not light weapon)
• Bonus to resist shove
• Bonus to break out of gappling hold
• Hit point bonus while leveling
• Prereq to use heavy weapons
• Prereq to use heavy armors
• Bonus to push
• Lift, carry, push, pull
• Hit dice to refresh after combat
• Fortitude save to withstand punishment
• Stamina check for lengthy endurance stunt
• Health check versus poison or disease

Perception
Physical senses, slow sensitive movements, precision, steady hand, fine motor skills.
• Perception versus Stealth to determine surprise
• Attack bonus to ranged attack (bow, crossbow, gun)
• Attack bonus versus unaware or helpless (including Sneak Attack)
• Passive perception defense versus hidden, invisible, obscured, faint
• Perception check versus hidden, invisible, obscured, faint
• Stealth check to hide, move quietly
• Medicine check to stabilize dying
• Manual dexterity check to disable a trap
• Manual dexterity check to set a trap
• Disguise check to sculpt a convincing mask or replicate a forgery
• Perception check to see thru disguise
• Disbelieve save versus illusion
• Illusion sensory magic.

Intelligence
Knowing, intuition, education, memory, discernment, understanding, calculation, anticipation.
• Damage bonus to ranged attack (bow, crossbow, gun)
• Damage bonus versus unaware or helpless (including Sneak Attack)
• Knowledge check for weakness in target (low ability, damage type vulnerability)
• Knowledge check to discern if creature is Undead
• After Perception: Investigate check to recognize/discern what is going on from obscure clue
• Deception check to falsify plausible information
• Lucidity save versus confusion
• Intuition check to get a ‘vibe’, or discern/deduce a special insight, for unknown situation
• Arcane check to identify spell effects
• Wizard scholarly magic
• Cleric intuitive magic

Charm
Social skills, sense of self, empathy, willpower, and influence.
• Willpower save versus charm, fear, domination
• Sanity save versus madness, corruption, etcetera
• Persuasion check to avoid combat, end combat, or gain ally in combat
• Intimidation check to avoid combat, end combat, or gain ally in combat
• Empathy insight check to identify mood and motive
• Performance check to distract a targets attention
• Check to find best person to talk to to extract information
• Inspiration to boost morale
• Bard social magic
• Paladin willpower magic




This is a thread for theory crafting and exploration. So feel free to discuss any merits of various ability score systems from various gaming systems, including the D&D six. For example, I love how Cortex Prime uses several abilities for any one effort, whichever apply narratively, then choosing the highest two to determine success. But I am unsure how to do this in D&D with d20s. Sometimes the explorations can be useful for D&D, or inspire ideas that are useful. But if not that is ok too.

 

[Yaarel]

A comparison might help.


Strength (Size)
• Strength grants a bonus to damage with any melee weapons: brute force.
(Impact, but no bonus to attack.)
• Large creatures are more strong, and Small creatures are less strong,
... and Strength corresponds to Size and reach.
• Strength grants the hit point bonus (that constitution used to give): bigger is less squishy.

Dexterity (Athletics)
• Dexterity grants a bonus to attack with all melee weapons, being body coordination.
(Accuracy, but no bonus to damage.)
• Dexterity includes reflex save, but also dodging, jumping, climbing, tumbling, gymnastics, and body mobility: athletics.
• Dexterity is physical fitness, generally, and trains against fatigue.

Wisdom (Perception)
• Wisdom is sensory perception.
• Wisdom grants a bonus to attack with a bow, gun, crossbow, or any weapon that requires a steady hand and careful aim.
• Wisdom is responsible for precise sensitive motions, and fine motor skills generally, including manual dexterity.
• Stealth: Wisdom notices those who are hidden, but also knows how to hide, move carefully and sensitively, and avoid being noticed.
• Wisdom grants a bonus to attack versus an unaware or helpless target, including sneak attacks, quiet, observant, and precise.

Intelligence (Education)
• Intelligence grants a bonus to damage with a bow, gun, or so on, knowing where and how to aim at vulnerabilities.
• Intelligence grants a bonus to damage versus an unaware or helpless target, including sneak attacks, regarding anatomy and structural weaknesses.
• Use Intelligence for bluff checks to be able to produce a plausible lie.
• Use Intelligence to figure out if something cant be true.

Charisma (Charm)
• Persuasion and Intimidation.
• Inspirational leadership.
• But also Empathy and Insight.
• And Willpower.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Folding STR and CON together?
Well, I suppose it's been done before, Interlock, IIRC, did that and called it 'Body?'' Build?' something like that...
OTOH, RQ had Size /and/ STR /and/ CON. :shrug:


Though it also looks like a bit of both STR & CON hitched a ride with DEX into Athletics...
...y'know, I don't hate that. The athletics/acrobatics divide has always been a little weird. Acrobats can't climb or jump? Athletes can't balance or take a fall?

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

Very interesting thread! Unfortunately it's 1:30 AM here so i can't go into length on remodeling all the abilities....
I would start with the rolling method though and hopefully chime in tomorrow with the abilities them self. So, for starters we ditch the 3d6 model. 5E goes for 16 as a highest "normal stat" one can start with equating a +3 bonus to relevant skill/to hit bonuses. So we go with 3d10 which gives us a much more gaussian probability curve. Then we assign 0 bonus to 1 standard deviation, 1 to 2 deviations, 2 to 3 deviations and 3 to anything above 3 deviations. Now that we have the bonuses we retroactively adjust our ability scores 16/17 for all plus 3's, 14/15 for all plus 2's and so forth.......

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

Ok, part 2, the abilities themselves

First the unchanged ones.
Strength - overall muscle power, the ability to throw things a long way, lift heavy objects, punch hard, carry heavy weights..... As usual, provides bonus to damage dealt, wither through weapon hits or pure unarmed feats. Has effect on matter manipulation (smashing through doors, bending bars, tearing fabrics), but no to hit bonus. Minimal STR values required for use of certain weapons without penalties though. I.E. a strong composite bow or big two handed/war sword needing a minimum of 14 STR to be used at full capacity. Failing to meet these requirements incurs disadvantage on attack rolls.

Dexterity - hand eye coordination. Calmness and articulation of motion, mostly with hands. Give bonus to the execution of all tasks performed by hands (or other appendages) that require precision (tinkering with devices, playing musical instruments, painting, mending wounds, crafting). Also gives to hit bonus to all weapon and unarmed attacks.

Constitution - overall physical fitness. The ability to exert yourself for long periods of time. To contrast it with STR, STR allows a strongman to hurl a 12ft pole 40 yards away, Con allows an endurance runner to cross 100 miles a day. It gives bonus to the physical health of the characters but also directly effects the stamina pool (more on that later).

Intelligence - capability for learning new subjects, solving problems, in other words the mental capacity. Governs all "lore" based activities, including languages (how many you can learn). It also provides bonus to finding weak points (increases chances for critical hits).

Now the departures:

Awareness - substitute for wisdom. It indicates the mindfulness and self composure/will power of a character. Gives bonus to all "insight" related skills like reading intentions, intuition, following tracks, reading the weather....).

Agility - departure from dexterity. It covers your overall body mechanics, reflexes, balance. Gives bonuses to dodging, performing acrobatics, quick draws, slight of hand.....

Presence - departure from charisma. If awareness is the inner strength of the PC, presence is the outward manifestation. The ability to get noticed, influence people, dominate over others either through diplomacy or intimidation.

Defense points or DP, departure from Hit points or HP. Instead of health, they represent how far away a person is from being defeated in combat. It's tightly related to stamina. Once you run out of DP you get hit (as in actual hit on your body) and suffer an injury (maybe) and get knocked out of combat. DP is an abstraction of individual skill, experience, luck and moral in combat. As such it can be boosted in combat by bard's motivational activities, cleric's divine interventions or paladin's leadership in example. During a fight a PC can take the second wind action and convert some of it's stamina (hit die) to DP. Warriors can take it as an extra action, while others as standard action. Warriors also gain multiple use of second wind as they level up. In between encounters there are no limits as to how much stamina can be converted to DP. However depleting one's stamina imposes penalties on the total amount of DP a character can have (still haven't figured out the right model yet, but i.e. 0 stamina caps your DP at 50% or 25% stamina at 75%).

Stamina, basically your hit dice. You expend them to recover DP or to power certain special actions that require extra ordinary levels of effort. They recover during rests. Short rest recovers 1 hit die, long rest up to half your total. Some classes may have special bonuses on either total number of HD or their recovery.

Health. This one i haven't figured out at all. I am stuck between some form of injury system and a basic health pool. If injury system is implemented, then each subsequent knock down gives you an injury (armor has a chance of mitigating it). If a health pool is implemented, then your health points or HP don't grow much as you level. Say you start as a level 1 warrior with 16 constitution. That gives you 10 HP + 3 from your CON to a total of 13. Each level you gain more, but only based on your modifier, so a level 10 fighter would have 10 + 10*3=40 HP. This is however is still not to my taste though. I'd rather start with a larger starting pool (as in 4E) with maybe 30HP and then gain more per class (or feat) instead of per modifier. Either way, injury or HP, damage to each of those would effect your DP. Thus out of 5 injuries possible or 100% total health, each would decrease your total DP by 20%.

There might be more, but am actually exhausted from typing all this. Hope it provides food for thought....
Cheers guys!

 

[Yaarel]

The abilities themselves

First the unchanged ones.
Strength ... Dexterity ... Constitution ... Intelligence ...

Now the departures:

Awareness ... Agility ... Presence ...

Cool. If I understand you correctly, you split some abilities further, so there are now seven ability scores in the array.

For the sake of comparison, permit me to organize the seven abilities as subsets of my ability fivesome in the original post. I further subdivided your seven for organizational purposes.



Athletics
• Dexterity-1 (bonus to melee attack, but not to damage)
• Agility-1 (overall body coordination, gross motor skills; gymnastics; reflex, dodging; balance; quick draw)
• Constitution-1 (physical fitness; checks for feats of endurance)


Size
• Strength (bonus to melee damage, but not attack; brute force checks; weapon prereqs)
• Constitution-2 (hit point bonus, defense points, hit dice, stamina to recover after injury)

Perception
• Dexterity-2 (manual dexterity, fine motor skills; bonus to ranged attack, but not to damage)
• Agility-2 (manual dexterity, slight of hand)

Education
• Intelligence (solving problems, learning, knowing, figuring things out)
• Awareness-1 (intuiting answers to solving problems)

Charm
• Awareness-2 (empathy, insight checks; personal willpower)
• Presence (charm, intimidate, leadership, entertainment, ability to impose will and influence)

Defense points or DP, departure from Hit points or HP.

Instead of health, they represent how far away a person is from being defeated in combat.

It's tightly related to stamina. Once you run out of DP you get hit (as in actual hit on your body) and suffer an injury (maybe) and get knocked out of combat. DP is an abstraction of individual skill, experience, luck and moral in combat. As such it can be boosted in combat by bard's motivational activities, cleric's divine interventions or paladin's leadership in example. During a fight a PC can take the second wind action and convert some of it's stamina (hit die) to DP. Warriors can take it as an extra action, while others as standard action. Warriors also gain multiple use of second wind as they level up. In between encounters there are no limits as to how much stamina can be converted to DP. However depleting one's stamina imposes penalties on the total amount of DP a character can have (still haven't figured out the right model yet, but i.e. 0 stamina caps your DP at 50% or 25% stamina at 75%).

Stamina, basically your hit dice. You expend them to recover DP or to power certain special actions that require extra ordinary levels of effort. They recover during rests. Short rest recovers 1 hit die, long rest up to half your total. Some classes may have special bonuses on either total number of HD or their recovery.

Health. This one i haven't figured out at all. I am stuck between some form of injury system and a basic health pool. If injury system is implemented, then each subsequent knock down gives you an injury (armor has a chance of mitigating it). If a health pool is implemented, then your health points or HP don't grow much as you level. Say you start as a level 1 warrior with 16 constitution. That gives you 10 HP + 3 from your CON to a total of 13. Each level you gain more, but only based on your modifier, so a level 10 fighter would have 10 + 10*3=40 HP. This is however is still not to my taste though. I'd rather start with a larger starting pool (as in 4E) with maybe 30HP and then gain more per class (or feat) instead of per modifier. Either way, injury or HP, damage to each of those would effect your DP. Thus out of 5 injuries possible or 100% total health, each would decrease your total DP by 20%.

There might be more, but am actually exhausted from typing all this. Hope it provides food for thought....
Cheers guys!

I think I understand what you are saying. I wonder if the way that I handle hit points now, is close enough to what you are trying to accomplish?

Hit points subdivide into full, half, and zero.

• Full hit points = refreshed condition, full health, full stamina

• Hit point loss until half damage = alert, but losing energy, superficial bruises, scrapes, knicks; ignorable injuries

• Half damage = bloodied condition, ouch! fatigued, defenses sloppy, needs first aid, but still superficial, these injuries hurt, but require minimal attention and heal in roughly 1d8 days

• Hit point loss from half until zero = ouch, ouch, ouch

• Zero hit points = character downed (unconscious, or else a limb is broken), a serious injury occurs, a permanent scar occurs, death saves begin



Death saves
• If a player wins all three saves in a row, then the injury heals in about 1d8 weeks
• If failing 1 death save, the injury heals in about 1d8 months.
• If failing 2 death saves, the injury never heals.
• If failing 3 death saves, the character dies. (Even a broken leg can kill via blood loss and shock.)

The required time to fully heal jumps from 1d8 days to 1d8 weeks to 1d8 months. This is missing some possibilities in between, perhaps using 3d8, but is simple and accurate enough.



Zero hit points is the only time real damage actually happens. This damage can threaten life − or limb. Any injury system only comes online if reaching zero hit points.

 

[Hillsy7]

As with all design systems, the ideal thing to do, I'd say, is to find an ideal or common end point with which everyone can work towards. In this instance: What do you want ability scores to do.

There are a number of factors at play: Mechanical, realism, player choice, description via numbers, fun, crunch (heavy/light).....and probably more. All of these can change and mix and cause problems and provide solutions. However, if you don't have an overarching concept of what is 'Good' or what is undesirable (mixed with What is D&D), you're just going to end up throwing a lot of spaghetti at a wall with no real measure.

So for an example, you mention SIZE right off the bat.

Some questions here could be:
Why does only SIZE affect damage? If I'm skilled enough to stab an eye or an armpit, why does it matter if i'm small?
Does SIZE negatively affect DEX skills? In a game where dealing damage is a large part of survival, are you penalising Small player choices?
If the calculus is supposed to be hit hard OR hit often, does that actually mean splitting damage into 2 stats is ultimately pointless? Damage output is going to be relative to the total points in SIZE and DEX?
How does SIZE relate to "strong" in a way that accurately describes my character concept. A dwarf warrior is small and powerful, my 7-foot tall, fat, old Half-Orc with a bad back and a trick knee can barely lift a stein of ale....

....and so on and so on.....

A cohesive core design intention will answer a lot of those questions straight away.....

 

[Yaarel]

Regarding Size.

Size grants hit point bonus, and melee damage bonus.


Size officially corresponds to hit points. The Monster Manual lists the following table in the context of hit dice:

Tiny d4 hit points
Small d6 hit points
Medium d8 hit points
Large d10 hit points
Huge d12 hit points

Larger creatures have more hit points and are tougher. Smaller creatures have fewer hit points and are squishier.



The Monster Manual and Volos compare typical creatures of roughly human metabolism, where Strength increases with Size as follows:

Tiny with Strength score 2: Pixie
Tiny with Strength score 3: Sprite

Small with Strength score 8: Boggle, Xvart

Medium with Strength score 13: Hobgoblin
Medium with Strength score 16: Orc

Large with Strength score 17: Half-Ogre
Large with Strength score 18: Minotaur, Troll
Large with Strength score 19: Ogre

Huge with Strength score 21: Hill Giant
Huge with Strength score 22: Cyclops
Huge with Strength score 23: Frost Giant, Stone Giant


There can be exceptional individuals, but the above list seems to represent typical examples.

(Keep in mind, the ability fivesome distinguishes between two kinds of Strength: Size and Athletics. So an Orc, for example, might be Size 16 Medium, but have individuals with Athletics 18.)

The evidence so far is spotty, but I suggest:

Tiny: Size score 1 to 4
Small: Size score 5 to 8
Medium (Lightweight): Size score 9 to 12
Medium (Heavyweight): Size score 13 to 16
Large: Size score 17 to 20
Huge (1): Size score 21 to 24
Huge (2): Size score 25 to 28

Larger creatures are stronger and deal more damage in melee.



Size matters. Larger creatures are tougher and hit harder.



@Hillsy7, dont forget, the Dwarf race is fully Medium size, very massive, broad, with relatively long arms, roughly the same arms length as typical Humans. So the typical Mountain Dwarf is probably a Heavyweight in Size, with a score of about 13 to 16. The Dwarf is big. Its just that most of the size is horizontal.

 

[Yaarel]

Does SIZE negatively affect DEX skills?

Does Size negatively affect Athletics? Maybe.

If you look at reallife champion gymnasts, they tend to be short. While tall gymnasts exist, they seem to be less frequent. It might be, a larger-size body is more difficult to swing around agily. But it can be done.

My thinking is, this is accounted for by the opportunity costs during character creation. So, a player who invest everything in Size will have less left over to invest in Athletics. And if the player also invests heavily in Athletics as well, then there is even less left over for the remaining three abilities. Think Half-Orc.

All-in-all, characters feel moreorless appropriate.

 

[Yaarel]

Lets focus specifically on the combat mechanics of each ability. (Lets avoid vague descriptions like ‘logic’ that almost never happen during gameplay. Just the mechanics, please.) Once we have all the mechanics down, we focus on the most elegant way to organize them, aiming for both simplicity and realism.

Athletics
Body mobility, coordination, jump, tumble, speed, fitness, stamina, gross motor skills.
• Attack bonus to melee attack
• Attack bonus to thrown weapon
• Attack bonus to unarmed attack
• Attack bonus to grapple versus Size
• Attack bonus to shove versus Size
• Initiative bonus
• Gymnastic check to jump, climb
• Gymnastic check to catch from falling, or to roll landing after falling
• Gymnastic tumble movement thru hostile space
• Gymnastic check to balance, during movement or keeping still
• Gymnastic check to perform a stunt
• Bonus to charge attack
• Reflex save to dodge to avoid hit
• Quick draw
• Sleight of hand (pickpocketing, distracting audience while finessing a legerdemain trick)
• AC bonus if no armor, or light or medium
• Stamina check for lengthy endurance exercise
• Health check versus poison or disease

Size
Size, brute force, and toughness.
• Long reach in melee combat
• Damage bonus to melee attack
• Damage bonus to unarmed attack
• Damage bonus to thrown weapon (but not light weapon)
• Bonus to resist shove
• Bonus to break out of gappling hold
• Hit point bonus while leveling
• Prereq to use heavy weapons
• Prereq to use heavy armors
• Bonus to push
• Lift, carry, push, pull
• Fortitude save to withstand punishment
• Hit dice to recover from combat

Perception
Physical senses, slow sensitive movements, precision, steady hand, fine motor skills.
• Perception versus Stealth to determine surprise
• Attack bonus to ranged attack (bow, crossbow, gun)
• Attack bonus versus unaware or helpless (including Sneak Attack)
• Passive perception defense versus hidden, invisible, obscured, faint
• Perception check versus hidden, invisible, obscured, faint
• Stealth check to hide, move quietly
• Medicine check to stabilize dying
• Manual dexterity check to disable a trap
• Manual dexterity check to set a trap
• Disguise check to sculpt a convincing mask or replicate a forgery
• Perception check to see thru disguise

Intelligence
Ways of knowing, intuition, discernment, education, memory, calculation, and anticipation.
• Damage bonus to ranged attack (bow, crossbow, gun)
• Damage bonus versus unaware or helpless (including Sneak Attack)
• Knowledge check for weakness in target (low ability, damage type vulnerability)
• Knowledge check to discern if creature is Undead
• After Perception: Investigate check to recognize/discern what is going on from obscure clue
• Deception check to falsify plausible information
• Discernment save versus illusion
• Lucidity save versus confusion
• Intuition check to get a ‘vibe’, or discern/deduce a special insight, for unknown situation
• Arcane check to identify spell effects
• Wizard scholarly magic
• Cleric intuitive magic

Charm
Social skills, sense of self, empathy, willpower, and influence.
• Willpower save versus charm, fear, domination
• Sanity save versus madness, corruption, etcetera
• Persuasion check to avoid combat, end combat, or gain ally in combat
• Intimidation check to avoid combat, end combat, or gain ally in combat
• Empathy insight check to identify mood and motive
• Performance check to distract a targets attention
• Check to find best person to talk to to extract information
• Inspiration to boost morale
• Bard social magic
• Paladin willpower magic



What other ability mechanics are there that can (typically) happen during a combat encounter?

Note:

I am hesitant about the spellcasting ability for the Druid or Cleric. Since Perception is now strictly sensory perception, without abstract intuition, Druid/Cleric magic seems to work better as either Intuition (understanding nature/cosmos) or more likely Charm (empathizing with nature spirits / spiritual community). Paladin magic is clearly Charm.

If Intelligence and Charm are the only magic abilities, then maybe decouple them somehow, so casters benefit from having high scores in both Intelligence and Charm, similar to how warriors benefit from both Athletics and Size, and archers and assassins benefit from both Perception and Intelligence.