D&D 5E [Homebrew] Rebalancing class resource recovery around less encounters (+ thread)

[Blue]

NOTE: This thread is not for everyone, if this isn't an issue for your table you may not find it needed. That's valid, this is a playstyle-dependant issue. Please add if you have anything constructive. Going into this with the understanding not every table would want this, we don't need confirmation of that - just positive responses.

I find that 6-8 encounters per long rest with 2 short rests does a good job of balancing long rest resource primary, short rest resource primary and at-will primary classes against each other during Tiers 2 & 3. I also find that it does not match my DMing style. I've flirted with different length for rests such as the DMG variant, but that has consequences in terms of long duration spells that I think may bring trouble of a different type.

So I'd like to hash out general guidelines for how to change the classes in order to reduce the average adventuring day to 3-4 (2-3?) encounters, with some days with fewer and some days with more as usual. Guideline is I'd rather work out some general or widely applicable rules (like a new spell slot progression) than delve into each class. That said, pointing out that some classes will need some exceptions (like perhaps # of barbarian rages) isn't bad, but I don't want to get caught up in a large back-and-forth discussion on a single feature.

Rule of fun can not be ignored. For example, just halving (or thirding) all uses per day may end up being balanced in terms of resource recovery, but having, for instance, all casters having 3 spells total per day and everything else is a cantrip is more the design space of the Warlock, who gets invocations to keep things interesting.

I need a solid plan for short rests. Specifically the warlock, where utility spells could be a big help during non-encounter challenges, do not get to recharge all-the-time, but still that it happen enough that all the various short rests (Ki, superiority dice, etc.) are balanced with the long rest and at-will primary classes.

Tier 1 is a less of an issue, but that means needs to be affected less, where resources are already pretty scarce. A caster with (normal) 2 spells per day isn't dominating at-will classes.

I haven't run or played 5e in Tier 4, my grasp on it is theoretical instead of practical. We can see how ideas come out for everyone, but it's not my personal focus.

While I want the classes to still feel and play like the PHB classes, I am okay with breaking some sacred cows, such as slowly losing some lower level spell slots when gaining higher level slots. This could be one way to preserve rule of fun in terms of having more than one on-levle slot for casting effective spells while cutting down on number of slots appropriate for a lot more encounters per day.

So, how would you go about this?

 

[Stoutstien]

I think there's a few general concepts that should be addressed before going and do any large rules or mechanical overalls.

The first overall game pacing. I think a lot of tables run to the problem of trying to shove 6-8 encounters into a session where 2-4 feels more comfortable and natural. The easiest solution is to not try to line up long rests with each session. 2-4 encounters per short rest has a good flow. The obvious downfalls of this is it slows the overall pace of the game way down. Definitely more sword-and-sorcery than high fantasy.

The other factor that doesn't get addressed a lot is the variance of how long counters are and if 'set up' or 'repositioning' rounds are common at a table. The common example would be something like phase spiders Or ghosts bouncing from room to room. It's something that just looking at the average resources spent per encounter even per round doesn't quite address.

Then we have the fact that all short rest resources where nort created equal. hence why it's not as simple as just multiplying short rest materials by 2 or 3 and calling it a day. This might stabilize the Monk but could supercharge the warlock or druid.

As as much as people hated 4e way of handling resources I think there are some tools there that could help. Splitting short rest resources into encounter resources or what not and SR ones could be a sound approach. The principal already there with a lot of high-level class features that recharge per fight. they're kind of crappy at higher levels but they could actually work really well at lower tiers. So the battlemaster started recharging one maneuver die right off the bat it would give them a very minimal bump in output over 6-8 encounters but soften the days they don't get a chance to short rest

 

[Blue]

The first overall game pacing. I think a lot of tables run to the problem of trying to shove 6-8 encounters into a session where 2-4 feels more comfortable and natural. The easiest solution is to not try to line up long rests with each session.

No such assumptions are being made. This is a + thread, please do not attempt to "disprove" the point under discussion is needed by making unfounded situational assumptions.

As as much as people hated 4e way of handling resources I think there are some tools there that could help. Splitting short rest resources into encounter resources or what not and SR ones could be a sound approach. The principal already there with a lot of high-level class features that recharge per fight. they're kind of crappy at higher levels but they could actually work really well at lower tiers. So the battlemaster started recharging one maneuver die right off the bat it would give them a very minimal bump in output over 6-8 encounters but soften the days they don't get a chance to short rest

This is a useful idea. As I mentioned, I'm unsure about short rests. We can't just roll them into "encounter powers", because that concept breaks down when there are no encounters as we saw with some powers in 4e when used out of combat.

We could break into the thematically close "scene powers". But once we do that, are we breaking the 5e narrative approach to resource recovery? 13th Age's recovery mechanism that divorces full heal-up (their long rest equiv) from sleep. Instead it happens ever 4 encounters (basically). But I get a lot of pushback from some because they want an in-world narrative consistancy. And a warlock being able to cast a spell twice because there was an exploration scene and an RP scene, when the previous day the same amount of time was spent on a single travelouge scene, may cause dissonance.

Let's explore short rest resources in 5e. In general, it seems like it's a pseudo-nova. You can save them, expend them in one scene and not have them available for later ones, or parcel them out across multiple scenes. While from a design side I like the idea of a per encounter/scene recharge as an elegant mechanic, I think we'd be giving up on some of the fun taking out all the resource tactics and ability to nova.

With that in mind, maybe we go for changing the ratio of short rests to long to have fewer of them but keep the resources per short rest the same. shrug I don't know, you've got a good point about the elegance of per-encounter, I just want to ensure we keep the fun aspect.

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

Spell slots are probably the biggest area to adjust here. Personally I would look at the total number of each level of spell slot that a caster would eventually get, reduce that total and then interpolate from there when spell slots are granted. To keep power level progression the same the first spell slot of every level has to be grated at the same level as current, but from there slow down when additional spell slots of that level are granted.

A final array of spell slots might look something like this:

Spell Lvl	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th
New	3​	3​	2​	2​	2​	1​	1​	1​	1​
Old	4​	3​	3​	3​	3​	2​	2​	1​	1​

 

[Stoutstien]

No such assumptions are being made. This is a + thread, please do not attempt to "disprove" the point under discussion is needed by making unfounded situational assumptions.



This is a useful idea. As I mentioned, I'm unsure about short rests. We can't just roll them into "encounter powers", because that concept breaks down when there are no encounters as we saw with some powers in 4e when used out of combat.

We could break into the thematically close "scene powers". But once we do that, are we breaking the 5e narrative approach to resource recovery? 13th Age's recovery mechanism that divorces full heal-up (their long rest equiv) from sleep. Instead it happens ever 4 encounters (basically). But I get a lot of pushback from some because they want an in-world narrative consistancy. And a warlock being able to cast a spell twice because there was an exploration scene and an RP scene, when the previous day the same amount of time was spent on a single travelouge scene, may cause dissonance.

Let's explore short rest resources in 5e. In general, it seems like it's a pseudo-nova. You can save them, expend them in one scene and not have them available for later ones, or parcel them out across multiple scenes. While from a design side I like the idea of a per encounter/scene recharge as an elegant mechanic, I think we'd be giving up on some of the fun taking out all the resource tactics and ability to nova.

With that in mind, maybe we go for changing the ratio of short rests to long to have fewer of them but keep the resources per short rest the same. shrug I don't know, you've got a good point about the elegance of per-encounter, I just want to ensure we keep the fun aspect.

we have to address pacing because that is the heart of the issue. as you said in your OP most people are happy with the 6-8 encounters to 2-3 SR ratio as good balance point with LR but that ratio is unrealistic in play due to being unable to fit those encounters between LRs. time in general is something DnD has never gotten right and having recover based on it shows.

as far as worrying about the narrative side effects of messing with resting, I wouldn't. its where the game(rules) and game(play) merge and that point will always be ugly. id rather have a functioning recovery system that works regardless of game pace than try to fight one that looks pretty but never fits where I want it.

I just turned SR into an action that anyone can take 2 times per LR. gamey as hell but now I can focus on making the parts of the game I can control better vs constantly worrying that Joe the monk hasn't got to SR in 4 encounters. the PC's resource management is the players responsibility.

 

[Krachek]

you won’t make friends reducing power of LR classes.
maybe it’s better to improve SR classes by giving more nova capacities.
give feature to recharge SR abilities by spending hit dice.
restore all hit dice at long rest, and maybe give some extra hit dice ( not hit points) to SR classes.
atwill classes may need new SR features.

 

[tetrasodium]

This is going to be very difficult because classes are all over the map with how rest dependent they are & that's way the dmg options like heal kit depend/gritty realism/slow natural healing/etc are all such disasters when put into play & potentially even worse if you have a bad group makeup for it. I think that a lot of class features will need to be reworked pretty dramatically & the end result will be d&d 5.1 complete with all the spells & classes grumble grumble

 

[Krachek]

we have to address pacing because that is the heart of the issue. as you said in your OP most people are happy with the 6-8 encounters to 2-3 SR ratio as good balance point with LR but that ratio is unrealistic in play due to being unable to fit those encounters between LRs. time in general is something DnD has never gotten right and having recover based on it shows.

as far as worrying about the narrative side effects of messing with resting, I wouldn't. its where the game(rules) and game(play) merge and that point will always be ugly. id rather have a functioning recovery system that works regardless of game pace than try to fight one that looks pretty but never fits where I want it.

I just turned SR into an action that anyone can take 2 times per LR. gamey as hell but now I can focus on making the parts of the game I can control better vs constantly worrying that Joe the monk hasn't got to SR in 4 encounters. the PC's resource management is the players responsibility.

In fact the op pacing assume one SR per day.
so we need to allow SR classes to take another one during fight.

 

[Laurefindel]

A few avenues to explore, unconnected and without order...

- Long rest only refreshes 1/2 HD. Other things could only refresh to half. This is more a nerf on LR classes than a boost to SR classes.

- Some features could require spending HD to refresh.

- Double (or triple) SR resources and adjust the difficulty of encounters. In my experience, this works ok until lvl 7th or 8th. Not so much after unless the game truly becomes epic.

- Instill a few "when you roll initiative and don't have X, gain Y uses of..."

- Without going full scale gritty realism, make LR a bit longer or less readily available.

- Attach a cost for refreshing LR resources. Call it donation, food, material component, "backtrack expenditures in last town".

 

[Esker]

I think I would allow hit dice to be spent whenever, as long as you are not currently in combat, to eliminate the annoying "should we take a short rest now" question, and assign short rest resources a hit die cost to recharge during the day (not instead of using them for healing, but in addition). This makes the distribution of those resources throughout the day more flexible, while capping how often you can recover them during the day in a way that doesn't require the DM to prevent rest-spamming.

Warlock slots should probably cost something like one hit die per two spell levels or so: that gives you about 5 slots per day for the most part. Ki could recharge half your total per hit die or so. Wildshape could be more expensive to recharge based on the CRs you used. Etc.

Most long rest resources would be unchanged, but spell slots and HP would only partially recover during a long rest, whereas hit dice would replenish completely. Maybe you heal the max roll for all the hit dice you didn't use during the day, and if that leaves you short you can re-spend some first thing.

At levels 1-2, the rate of spell slot recovery would be fast enough to get you up to full, but as you go up in level the slots you can recover on a rest go up more slowly than the slots you have.

Maybe you can recover slots whose level totals twice your caster level. This changes little at low levels, but heads toward half-recovery as you advance.

2/2 at 1st
3/3 at 2nd
6/8 at 3rd
8/10 at 4th
10/16 at 5th
12/19 at 6th
14/23 at 7th
16/27 at 8th
18/32 at 9th
20/37 at 10th
22/43 at 11th
24/43 at 12th
26/50 at 13th
28/50 at 14th
30/58 at 15th
32/58 at 16th
34/67 at 17th
36/72 at 18th
38/78 at 19th
40/85 at 20th