[Homebrew] The Variant Sorcerer - No spell slots, just metamagic and cantrips.

[Doccit]

It seems unnecessarily complicated, much like the Warlock, which is far more complex than any other class. I was hoping for something more straight-forward.

You might be over-constraining your design, by limiting yourself to existing cantrips. As long as nobody else can access it, you can just give them a special class power that does level-appropriate damage, without worrying about how many times you multiply your Charisma modifier.

I agree that this class is most comparable to the Warlock but I disagree that the Warlock is by far the most complex class. I think the variant sorcerer can get away with the complexity it adds because you basically have none of the ordinary management associated with spells. The special class power idea is really interesting and I will certainly consider it!

Eruption Honing seems a little too good. First there's the 120' radius: 30' is the normal. Secondly, adding +1 means that someone could end up with a +4 weapon. So I suggest just making weapons magical and add that armour also becomes magical and somewhat resistant to the three weapon damage types, reducing damage by 3 (q.v. Heavy Armour Master).

Flash-bang also seems a little good. How about allowing a save for the blindness immediately?

Nimbus Spell should cost SPs for the push. Distant Spell should also cost SPs. In fact, all metamagic should cost SPs.

Overall, I'm not sure that the class is going to be fun to play.

Yeah, I think I agree that Eruption honing is a little over the line. I'm not sure about your solution, but I'll find a way to make it less powerful. I also think it is a little off-theme because the Arcane Artisan is supposed to be kind of agnostic about the kind of crafting you are doing, but this ability seems to explicitly be about smithing.

Flash-Bang is good, but I don't think it is so much better than the blindness/deafness spell that it is based on. I'll consider the immidiate save thing though.

Thanks for the feedback! I'd love to hear more about why you think all metamagic should cost SPs and why you're worried that the class won't be fun to play!

Not a fan of another "cantrips are my thing" caster especially one with so many obvious warlock influences.

While i find the sorcerer to be a little on the "meh" side mechanically (esp with PHB only no XGTE) i would not be wanting to replace it or variant it with even less spell options.

i think the simplest and most direct "target the problem" fix i would do for the sorc would be to provide a "ten spells 1st-5th" additional **known** spells for each origin that work like the cleric's do - they are known and dont count against your known count but cannot be changed out.

A second route might be to give each sub-class one metamagic locked in - additional - but i dislike that because it has the risk of making some "winners" for say the sub-class that get twinned free vs those who get distant free. So, its my least favorite.

I dont think the class needs or benefits from a lot of overhaul and reforming, it just needs a little more of what it does already and a few extra spells known that fit your origin theme seems like the most direct fix i can see.

Thanks for taking the time to read it! It seems to me like you like the sorcerer from the PHB as it is, and that's fine! I'm not trying to say that the PHB should have been written with this variant instead. This is an alternative who don't like the way the sorcerer plays. I personally love the Warlock, and so I've moved the sorcerer closer to them.

I got from your post that you've read a lot of "cantrips are my thing" classes and that they don't interst you. I'd love to hear more from you on this. I think people keep returning to this idea because they want a magic-themed class that plays more like a rogue than it does a wizard. What do you think their goal is, and do you think they fail to realize it? What about the cantrip casters do you feel is offputting?

 

[Dausuul]

There's a lot of stuff here, and quite a few good ideas! Suggestions:

• Empowered Spell: Consider rewriting this ability as follows: "When you cast a cantrip that deals damage, add your Cha modifier to each die of damage." As long as nobody creates a cantrip that deals 2d4 base damage or something, this is mechanically equivalent and a lot easier to read.
• Twinned Spell: It's not clear exactly how this works, because you specify "one or more" targets, but then the rest of the ability is written as if it were limited to one. Why not just say: "When you cast a cantrip, you may spend 1 sorcery point to duplicate the effect. You can't target the same creature, object, or area with both effects."
• Arcane Eruption: Okay, first off, the name really needs to be changed. That aside... I'm not a huge fan of just piling on more damage. What about merging this with Font of Magic, and removing the "no attack cantrips" restriction? Arcane Exaltation: On your turn, when you cast a spell, you can enter a state of heightened magical power. You can cast a cantrip as a bonus action on each of your turns. This effect ends after 1 minute, or if you end your turn without casting a spell.
• Some of the metamagic seems like you're trying to shoehorn leveled spell effects into your all-cantrips-all-the-time class. Grasping Spell, for example, basically overwrites the original spell with a kind of Bigby's hand. I prefer your approach with the Arcane Arts like Awakened Mage Hand: Abilities that heighten the impact of specific cantrips. What if those were metamagic effects? So you spend 1 sorcery point when casting mage hand, and it can physically move a creature, or knock it prone, or something like that. That allows you to add potent magical effects that are also tailored to the sorcerer's cantrip picks.
• Seconding the others who think two full-fledged subclasses is too many. Also, too many options in general.

 

[5ekyu]

I agree that this class is most comparable to the Warlock but I disagree that the Warlock is by far the most complex class. I think the variant sorcerer can get away with the complexity it adds because you basically have none of the ordinary management associated with spells. The special class power idea is really interesting and I will certainly consider it!



Yeah, I think I agree that Eruption honing is a little over the line. I'm not sure about your solution, but I'll find a way to make it less powerful. I also think it is a little off-theme because the Arcane Artisan is supposed to be kind of agnostic about the kind of crafting you are doing, but this ability seems to explicitly be about smithing.

Flash-Bang is good, but I don't think it is so much better than the blindness/deafness spell that it is based on. I'll consider the immidiate save thing though.

Thanks for the feedback! I'd love to hear more about why you think all metamagic should cost SPs and why you're worried that the class won't be fun to play!



Thanks for taking the time to read it! It seems to me like you like the sorcerer from the PHB as it is, and that's fine! I'm not trying to say that the PHB should have been written with this variant instead. This is an alternative who don't like the way the sorcerer plays. I personally love the Warlock, and so I've moved the sorcerer closer to them.

I got from your post that you've read a lot of "cantrips are my thing" classes and that they don't interst you. I'd love to hear more from you on this. I think people keep returning to this idea because they want a magic-themed class that plays more like a rogue than it does a wizard. What do you think their goal is, and do you think they fail to realize it? What about the cantrip casters do you feel is offputting?

"It seems to me like you like the sorcerer from the PHB as it is, and that's fine!"

I can see why you get that when i specifically describe that as meh and even point to the PHB only itself. After all, we all know the definition of me is "like it as it is."

But in actuality, *as i stated* i do not want the approach to an "improvement" to remove what it does, which is really to be a main level caster and replace it with a more limited arcane-warrior type of niche. Instead, i wanted (as shown) to add to the by emphasizing their unique feature "origins of their magic" even more and expanding on it in ways that *add to* their primary core - being a full arcane caster.

So thats where the approach i cited as primary adds to the sub-classes the usual bank of 10 additional themed known spells.

Why don't i like tacking the cantrip-archer onto this class? Because the net result to me seems to dilute and remove the core heart of the class "origin of my magic". Your rewrites of the various origins to me seem to leave them mostly lackluster, since the major "what i do" for this character will now be "hit with my cantrip" again and again the other stuff just seems more like garnihs than part of the meal.

As for other "cantrip-striker" type classes, characters and builds - i have nothing against the, i have seen them played, played them, read quite a few write-ups. While some folks post about them being boring or whatever, i see that as a flavor-taste-preference thing - and see them very much as an arcane-shooter type of options, no more boring than say a fighter, rogue or archer might be. Each of them may be doing "the same thing" round after round when it comes to output. however, to me part of the charm of those classes comes from "what else they do" - if their combat is rather repetitive, one would hope they have other areas of strong suits to help them spotlight themselves. (Rogues excel at this with their skills and versatility etc and even fighters bring to the table higher than typical survivability and often strength.) This class seems to lack that mostly, pouring everything it seem into "arcane-striker-stronger" etc.

perhaps it having CHA as a prime stat is enough to carry it, if it spends one or two of its skills on social stuff and there isn't a bard around to carry that load.

So, why do i think some folks like the cantrip-striker class (warlock)? because it hits a decent balance between caster and fighter type play-styles and offers a lot of variety with its numerous choices - inside and outside of combat. i do not see them as "not realizing" or not meeting "their goal" or whatever you took from my sentence.

However, i find this particular class to be so much more like "take a warlock, call it sorcerer for some reason (oh yeah, to get meta-magic in play) and remove the variety/options in favor of bigger cantrip-striker fu" and at the same time remove all that "obligation to patron" stuff that might get in the way.

So, as i said, in an effort to make the sorcerer more interesting, more appealing or even flat-out better - this is not a direction i would go. this is a combat-lasered Warlock, not a sorc, that removes the patron ties and crams meta-magic into it.

To me at least, YMMV.

 

[Doccit]

There's a lot of stuff here, and quite a few good ideas! Suggestions:

• Empowered Spell: Consider rewriting this ability as follows: "When you cast a cantrip that deals damage, add your Cha modifier to each die of damage." As long as nobody creates a cantrip that deals 2d4 base damage or something, this is mechanically equivalent and a lot easier to read.
• Twinned Spell: It's not clear exactly how this works, because you specify "one or more" targets, but then the rest of the ability is written as if it were limited to one. Why not just say: "When you cast a cantrip, you may spend 1 sorcery point to duplicate the effect. You can't target the same creature, object, or area with both effects."

Fantastic suggestions! Those are much simpler.

• Arcane Eruption: Okay, first off, the name really needs to be changed. That aside... I'm not a huge fan of just piling on more damage. What about merging this with Font of Magic, and removing the "no attack cantrips" restriction? Arcane Exaltation: On your turn, when you cast a spell, you can enter a state of heightened magical power. You can cast a cantrip as a bonus action on each of your turns. This effect ends after 1 minute, or if you end your turn without casting a spell.

I totally agree about the name, but I'm drawing a blank on something better. Any suggestions? I'm not sure about letting them cast two cantrips a round one combat per day. That is a way bigger damage boost. And I'm quite pleased the way font of magic works right now. Its like a sorcerer version of the Rogue's cunning action/fast hands feature. What if at level 3, in addition to the damage, the subclass gave an extra effect to the eruption? Right now they get the extra effect at level, six, but I don't think it would be overpowered to give it to them a few levels earlier.

• Some of the metamagic seems like you're trying to shoehorn leveled spell effects into your all-cantrips-all-the-time class. Grasping Spell, for example, basically overwrites the original spell with a kind of Bigby's hand. I prefer your approach with the Arcane Arts like Awakened Mage Hand: Abilities that heighten the impact of specific cantrips. What if those were metamagic effects? So you spend 1 sorcery point when casting mage hand, and it can physically move a creature, or knock it prone, or something like that. That allows you to add potent magical effects that are also tailored to the sorcerer's cantrip picks.

Its actually based off of Watery Sphere because I found after significant effort that mixing bigby's hand into a cantrip resulted in something too weird. But yeah you're right, I am shoehorning spell effects into metamagic, and some of them are kind of awkward.

That example you give with mage hand is really great! I worry that it breaks with the metamagic theme a little bit if the metamagic can only be applied to one cantrip. But independently of calling it metamagic, I love the idea of having more "awakened cantrip" invocations that have sorcery point spending options attatched. I'll think hard about what I'd like to fall into that category and what ought to be metamagic.

• Seconding the others who think two full-fledged subclasses is too many. Also, too many options in general.

I'm sold! The next update will have just one subclass. Thanks for all the feedback! This was very helpful.