Homemade items: Rules vs House Rules

[Deset Gled]

I recently noticed a thread that went back and forth between the Rules forum and the House Rules forum about pricing on a magic item someone created (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=103527). I was wondering what kind of discussion went on behind the scenes about where this type of post should go.

Personally, I'm of the oppinion that posts on this subject belong in House Rules. The items themselves clearly are house rules, and the text that their creation is based on isn't rules either, it's merely a set of suggestions.

Edit: I just found this thread (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=102564 ) which explains what went on a little bit better, but I still side with Pielorinho on this one.

 

[Piratecat]

Ah, but the specific question in both of those cases was about pricing. We've decided that since pricing is taking the rules as written and applying them to an item, those questions should be in rules. It's a little arbitrary, but should work out okay so long as we let people know. The previous problem is that the mods had never discussed it before, so we were each handling it differently.

 

[Hypersmurf]

We've decided that since pricing is taking the rules as written...

Or, for those who prefer, "the set of suggestions as written"...

-Hyp.

 

[Deset Gled]

Whay Hyp said. Where's dcollins when you need him?

Furthermore, I think that using the justification that applying rules to a homebrew item makes it a rules question is just wrong. There were rules published in Dragon about how to design a feat, but home made feats are obviously considered houserules. Balance is a very important part of the rules, but when someone asks people to help balance a homebrew PrC, it's considered houserules. I think that it you're asking questions about anything homemade, the thread belongs in houserules.

It's also worth noting that the Rules forum is generally a lot busier place than the House Rules forum. It makes sense to me to move as much away from Rules as possible (given it doesn't directly involve a rules question), to even out traffic between the forums.

 

[Pielorinho]

The thing is, the rules in the DMG are very clearly guidelines, just as surely as the rules on how to choose a spell's appropriate level are guidelines. To me, this seems less in the "rules" category than a post on, say, whether a rogue with a rapier in his main hand and a wand of acid splash in his off-hand can flank a bugbear with the rapier, attack wtih the wand of acid splash, and sneak-attack his target.

There's no hard-and-fast answer to what price a given new magic item should have; there are only guidelines that might help a DM settle on a price.

That's why I moved it.

The opposing argument is that the guidelines for magic items are far more specific than the guidelines for new spells or new PrCs, and so they fit better in the rules forum than figuring out balance on new spells or new PrCs. And I can see the merits of that argument, definitely.

Mostly I'm just happy to have them all in one place or another.

Daniel

 

[Nail]

The thing is, the rules in the DMG are very clearly guidelines, just as surely as the rules on how to choose a spell's appropriate level are guidelines.

...You're implication being that guidelines are not rules.

Okay, I can see why you might make that distinction.

But, honestly, I'm not sure that distinction is useful, especially with regard to pricing magic items. These are more than just "general guidelines"; they are quite elaborate!

So really, our argument boils down to: "When are guidlines considered rules?" I'd say the magic item section qualifies. It's length alone is a strong indicator.

There are specific rules for creating new magic items...far more specific than other "guidelines" or "variants" listed in other areas. The first rule is: compare to other listed items. The second rule is: use these formulas to estimate price. The third is: If it smells fishy, it's probably fish......or some such.

Or, to throw another cliche out there: if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck.....

 

[Pielorinho]

Yeah, I see what you're saying, and that's why we decided that such things would go in "Rules." Still, think of it this way: if I say in my game that magic missiles can strike chains and break them, I'm clearly going against the rules as written. If I say that a Turkey Giblet of Infinite Cure Minor Wounds costs 100,000 gp to create, I'm not clearly going against the rules as written.

That's the difference I was making. However, it's back in rules now, so everything's hunkydory.

Edit: here's the section of the item creation rules that made me think creation costs fell more neatly under house rules:

Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

These types of disclaimers don't pervade sections on, for example, Attacks of Opportunity, or targeting a spell, or the effects of fatigue and exhaustion.

Daniel

 

[Nail]

These types of disclaimers don't pervade sections on, for example, Attacks of Opportunity, or targeting a spell, or the effects of fatigue and exhaustion.

No complaints there!

 

[Piratecat]

Truth is, we don't really care whether such questions end up in Rules or House Rules. . . we just want to be consistent.

 

[Michael Morris]

Just want to interject that it is positional disputes on threads like this that make me really keen on getting my categories hack working - that way the same thread can "exist" in multiple catergories at the same time. When that hack is up and running I'm sure the mods will look into reordering the forums, but in the meanwhile we'll make do with the current system.