Homosexuality in the Forgotten Realms

[Lonely Tylenol]

...here you cite their similarity to humans. Now, we know beyond any doubt that humans have a significant percentage of pure-homosexuals and bisexuals of various degrees among them. Since elves are so similar to humans, even to the point of being genetically compatible with them, it therefore stands to reason that elves will also have a significant percentage of homosexuals and bisexuals, does it not?

It only follows once you have explicated the reasons behind the existence of homosexuality in humans and shown that the same explanation applies to elves. If we're assuming that to begin with, then the connection holds trivially. If we're not assuming it, we need to explain why we think humans and elves would have a similar sexuality. Humans and chimps, despite having very similar physiology, have rather different sexual behaviour. Of course, we don't know precisely why homosexuality happens, or why it occurs with the particular frequency it does. And we certainly don't know the equivalent in elves. So this entire line of argument is pretty darn pointless.

I think it's better to stick to the more interesting and fruitful line of "what if..." rather than trying to seriously argue about the sexuality of a fictional species.

 

[DaveMage]

The only D20 campaign setting I've seen where homosexuality was presented is Oathbound. A few of the relationships described in there are homosexual (and very few -IIRC- are man/woman).

The first time I read the setting I was taken aback (as in, "Did I read that right?") because I had not seen a homosexual (male) relationship described in a D&D-like setting before.

 

[dragonlordofpoondari]

They are not straight men, despite being married and (presumably) exclusively having sex with their wives; they are gay men who are simply adopting straight behavior for however long it takes them to work through their personal issues.

Unless they're bisexual.
I like to think that these multiplicities of sexuality, straight and gay, need not be rigid or binary. I prefer the fluid model (straining not to make a joke about fluid here). Absolutely straight and absolutely gay are two extremes ... there are a lot of other valid and enjoyable options.

I have observed that there can be prejudice against the bisexuals from gay and straight alike. For example, I personally prefer not to date bisexuals because there is twice as much competition, and I don't go for group shenanigans anymore ... too messy (straining again)! Regardless, it is within the realm of possibility that this man in your example (who had a wife then a husband) could be bisexual, and the order in which he marries is arbitrary.

I think that trying to force change in order to accomodate some external pressure (cultural, social, family, whatever) will never work. It sounds like this may have happened to you. That must have been horrible. People absolutely must be true to themselves. I do, though, fiercely believe that people can and do change if the change comes from within and they desire it. This change can be from straight to gay, gay to straight, ignorant to informed, hopeless alchoholic to functional, superficial to enlightened, what have you. People hopefully change as they grow. It is often hard work, but it can happen. God, I sound cheesy.

 

[Mouseferatu]

The only D20 campaign setting I've seen where homosexuality was presented is Oathbound.

There are a few scattered throughout the Scarred Lands, too. And one or two have popped up in the Paizo adventure paths.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I like to think that these multiplicities of sexuality, straight and gay, need not be rigid or binary.

That's my belief as well. "Straight" and "gay" aren't two options, but two ends of a very wide continuum.

 

[dragonlordofpoondari]

OK, first off: What's a Diaglo?

I believe it's a hideous, ill-tempered ogre thing spawned from a foul union with a Gorgon. It was statted up in the original Field Folio and then again in Tome of Horrors II.

hahaha! j/k

Diaglo is a resident grognard in these parts who likes his old-school D&D extra old-school.

With that said, it is fairly clear that who one has sex with is not entirely a function of orientation. Orientation is what one desires; sex is what one actually does. A straight elf, conceivably, might well decide to try a homosexual experience once, for whatever reason one might try something new and different. This does not make the elf in any way "less straight," it just makes the elf more open-minded and experienced. Likewise, a homosexual elf might try it with the other gender once, just because- but this does not make the elf any less gay.

A salient distinction, and one with which I completely agree. Sexual identity and sexuality are absolutely not the same as sex. Hence, I can still claim to be straight. Here goes: I'm straight!!!

Perhaps elves are extremely picky about the characteristics of their partners: must be male, must have dark hair, must have light skin, etc. This could explain why elves have so many subraces. It's the by-product of what is essentially a fairly intense degree of sexual selection.

A plausible rationale. I like it as much as the hermaphrodite thing. Both fun fluffy bits and good campaign fodder.

Well, first off, elves are fictional, quasi-magical creatures and can be as similar or dissimilar biologically to humans in the game as a GM wishes to make them. Furthermore, every GM/DM has a different interpretation of how biology, ecology, physics, etc. works in their world -- and a number of these divergent interpretations can be sustained without changing a single syllable of the core rules.

A very good point. The fact that so many intelligent adults can discuss the sexuality of a fictional, magical, species like elves is actually pretty great. What a strange and wonderful world this is. Earth ... I mean.

That's my belief as well. "Straight" and "gay" aren't two options, but two ends of a very wide continuum.

I'm glad we agree, Ari! Love your writing, btw.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Secondly: Does *everybody* have a big, hairy, 300+lb *male* in their group that plays nothing but a lesbian female rogue/Half-Celestial???!!!

No, but I have a couple (!) that plays a gay male kobold druid -- who's into human males, not kobolds. (See my Story Hour link.)

 

[Kahuna Burger]

A random thought.... When hanging out with a collection of geeky friends in my basic age group, one woman commented "what's up with the poly-pagan-bi-geek overlap, anyway?" Being the psych minor type, I responded with something about all of them to one extent or another reflecting (usually*) a willingness to, to some extent, create your own belief/relationship/career structure, rather than following a set and expected model. This led to a fairly interesting discussion about how different people in the group had followed the same pattern of working out what worked for them in relationships as they had in their spiritual life.

*There are always the exceptions, and this was, again, in my particular age group and socioeconomic catagory. The younger you are, the less this may hold true for folks you know in any of those groups. It is also not meant to downplay the intrinsic quality of sexuality, but the fact that for many in my generation, coming to terms with this factor of their personality and how they were going to aproach life did involve a fair amount of social construction.

My experience has been that I will be in one job/social circle/environment (say, hanging out with folks in a software startup or dealing with theater geeks) where it seem the 10% guideline for homosexuality is massively underselling the prevelance, and then in another (working for an insurance company) where it seems like 10% is the pipe dream of activists. And these differences often overlap with more poly-pagan-geeks. (and left handers. what's up with that?)

What does this have to do with the price of ten foot poles in Cormyr? The career/lifestyle/role of "adventurer" is also going to be very often a constructed one, not featured in career fairs, family discussions, etc. There will be exceptions, the 3rd generation adventurer, the foundling raised by monks as a weapon for Good, etc, but there's also going to be a lot of, for want of a better term, geeks. Outsiders. People who didn't work in the life they were born to and had modeled for them and had to go out and construct the life that worked for them. As such, it is perfectly OK even if you decide that the prevelence of homosexuality is 1% in the forgotten realms for adventurers and high level folks in positions of power (who were often former adventurers themselves) to have a 25-50% rate of "some homosexual leanings/expereince". In a setting like Oathbound, where many of the most powerful people were "seeds" brought into the setting from other worlds where they were already adventurers striving to carve out a place in the world, it's even less surprising from that perspective.

(this is the same perspective I apply to compalints that half breeds or good monsterous humanoids or whatever should be "very rare" so why do they show up in adventuring parties right and left. Hey, if they are one in a thousand, doesn't it make it more likely that that one would have left home and joined in with a loose community of misfits who accept you based on your skills? )

 

[fusangite]

A random thought.... When hanging out with a collection of geeky friends in my basic age group, one woman commented "what's up with the poly-pagan-bi-geek overlap, anyway?" Being the psych minor type, I responded with something about all of them to one extent or another reflecting (usually*) a willingness to, to some extent, create your own belief/relationship/career structure, rather than following a set and expected model. This led to a fairly interesting discussion about how different people in the group had followed the same pattern of working out what worked for them in relationships as they had in their spiritual life.

Everybody creates, for him- or herself, their own personal belief structure. It is not a matter of those of use who choose to hew to more traditional social structures being less enterprising in seeking out a scheme that works for ourselves. Many of us who join traditional denominations and political movements or form traditional conjugal relationships are every bit as experimental and questioning in the process of finding structures that work for us; we just arrive different conclusions.

It takes no more creativity to follow a stigmatized subculture than it does to follow the mainstream.

My experience has been that I will be in one job/social circle/environment (say, hanging out with folks in a software startup or dealing with theater geeks) where it seem the 10% guideline for homosexuality is massively underselling the prevelance, and then in another (working for an insurance company) where it seems like 10% is the pipe dream of activists. And these differences often overlap with more poly-pagan-geeks.

Well, people gravitate towards subcultures that are accepting of them. I'm sure I could find the same high density of gay people in the seminary for celibate clergy. It's just that that crew would be united by shared disapproval of their sexual identity/inclination.

What does this have to do with the price of ten foot poles in Cormyr? The career/lifestyle/role of "adventurer" is also going to be very often a constructed one, not featured in career fairs, family discussions, etc. There will be exceptions, the 3rd generation adventurer, the foundling raised by monks as a weapon for Good, etc, but there's also going to be a lot of, for want of a better term, geeks. Outsiders.

Again, I'm afraid I'll go for a simpler psychological explanation. One of the biggest selling points of RPGs has always been wish fulfilment for social outcasts. Indeed, it constitutes the premise of pretty much anything White Wolf writes -- subcultures that feel persecuted, tie their sense of self-worth to a belief in their originality and imagination and wear their 'persecuted outsider' badge proudly are going to have pretty predictable wish fulfilment fantasies that can be easily catered-to.

But you are just operating in one corner of gaming. There are the politics gaming nerds, the army gaming nerds and a host of other groups that probably don't even overlap with the pagan/poly gaming scene.

People who didn't work in the life they were born to and had modeled for them and had to go out and construct the life that worked for them.

Or they decided to follow the Buddha's advice that it was time to stop trying to solve all discrepancies between what one has and what one wants by changing what one has.

You seem to have this idea that mainstream people and people in subcultures other than your own are somehow fundamentally less special snowflakes than you. You may be couching it in obfuscating language. But what you are doing is minimizing, the uniqueness, creativity and deep personal conflicts around identity and society that are being experienced elsewhere.

 

[s.j. bagley]

i think my rogue should start sporting an 'elminster says relax!' tunic.