Homosexuality in your games

[Whatthehell]

First, thanks for answering. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm just wary of one minority group trying to get more than what the majority gets
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Give people some space and a chance to grow. Rush them, and they'll get beligerent.

Jesus Christ, really?

 

[maybecca]

Jesus Christ, really?

Tried to xp this post but got an error page. Seriously, Janx?

 

[Lwaxy]

Cool it down, everyone!

I don't want to close this thread, but if there are continuing implied accusations of homophobia, rude replies, comparisons of homosexuality with criminal activity (rape and torture) and reports about this thread - a whole load of them and most justified in one way or the other - I will.

Please take care about what you post, as this is a sensitive topic.

User Whatthehell has been removed from this thread for rudeness. Be polite, please, we can all do it.

Edited to add - also be polite when reporting a post. Reports with insults in them make us wonder if it is not just trolling of a different kind.

 

[Leviatham]

Right. Because stepping up to Google and typing, "homosexuality" is going to properly educate anyone?

It certainly going to be more useful than doing nothing, relying on the bible or by watching movies, that's for sure.

More seriously, though - the human race now has more information than a single person could ever learn. Even if one intends to learn everything, it is not possible to do. Not having gotten around to your particular favorite does not constitute a failing or willful ignorance on someone else's part.

"My particular favourite"? Homosexuality is not my particular favourite. That's just the one I deal with on a daily basis. I would prefer if I didn't have to deal with it at all, but because there is still a lot of unawareness out there, I do.

My particular favourite is domestic abuse. I am a relationship counsellor and one of my specialisms is on domestic abuse. I work with perpetrators of domestic abuse and domestic violence as a volunteer.

And my point is not just about "not having gotten around" it, is about the why and why people show the resistance.

And, to be honest, if one was interested in enhancing understanding of homosexuality in the world, RPGs (with their honestly tiny market) seems a pretty inefficient vehicle. For a given amount of effort spent, the return is small.

And that is a reason to ignore it in RPGs?

And how do you measure the return being small?

 

[Leviatham]

It's this I take exception to. "If you aren't putting gay NPCs into your worlds, or playing gay characters, maybe you're a bigot."

You're more than welcome to take exception to that. The truth is that it is a possibility.

I am not saying or implying, as I have been accused more than once already, that if you don't you *are*. In fact the majority of people around here have been very clear that they, simply, just haven't come across it, didn't think it'd add any value to their games or it's just a non-issue.

I don't think those people are bigots.

I don't think that not having gay characters makes you a homophobe or a bigot.

I am not saying that everyone should do it.

I am not saying there is an obligation to it.

I wanted to make those points clear (and I'll do it again) so people don't read too much *into* what I am saying and come out with the wrong conclusion.

 

[Leviatham]

That's a little disingenuous. They also don't explicitly address the existence of currant buns or underpants. Maybe they should, but let's not pretend there's any anti-homosexual agenda going on there.

At no point I have said there is an anti-gay agenda anywhere. I have simply stated the obvious, that homosexuality is left out of most fantasy settings.

That doesn't mean there is an anti-gay agenda, it could be for many other reasons. From not being relevant to the setting to not having enough information to make it credible.

I'll agree with those who have been sensitive to an underlying unspoken accusation of bigotry simply because they don't actively campaign for a given issue - especially during their games. Maybe that accusation isn't there, but it sure feels like it is. Most of us simpl do not even thin about gender or sexuality in a game; we think about killing things and taking their stuff. Or, if we're feeling a bit more cerebral, we think about spoiling the BBG's Machievellian plot.

But we don't think black/white, gay/straight, east/west, right/left etc. We just think "good/evil".

There is no accusation. At no point I have in this thread hinted at that. And in more than one occasion I have said that it is not the case.

I haven't called anyone a homophobe and I haven't' called anyone a bigot. I have, though, acknowledged that they might exist. I think that is only reasonable.

If you, or anyone else, can point at places in this thread where I have hinted that not having gay-characters make you a bigot, either highlight them so I can either apologise if necessary or elaborate if appropriate, or contact me in private.

So far this debate has been rather civil and I would hate to see it deteriorate because of implied meanings that are not there.

 

[Leviatham]

That's pretty much the heart of my problem with the complaint as well. I think that its very easy to just assert 'bigotry' as a reflexive complaint against anyone who acts, thinks, or behaves in any way different than you. Similarly, I most often see 'close-minded' used in a way that suggests, 'anyone that doesn't agree with me'.

A) The OP wasn't a complain. It was simply stating situations I have seen and elements I feel are left out. It was also asking why. At no point I implied that it is wrong or that people are bigots.

B) I haven't been the one who's brought the word "bigot" to the thread. I haven't inferred, at any point, that people do it by default out of bigotry. I was curious as to why people don't. Simple as that.

Quite frankly, if I thought this place was full of bigots I wouldn't have bothered to post anything. But I don't, which is why I posted.

 

[Leviatham]

Yes. What the hell is wrong with you?

No. As I have clearly stated previously. That is not the case.

I have no idea who you are, but please don't try to help me.

 

[Leviatham]

Cool it down, everyone!

I don't want to close this thread, but if there are continuing implied accusations of homophobia, rude replies, comparisons of homosexuality with criminal activity (rape and torture) and reports about this thread - a whole load of them and most justified in one way or the other - I will.

To clarify (again) I am not implying any accusation of bigotry or homophobia. However I have acknowledged that they do exist, though not in relation to people posting in this thread.

I haven't been rude in my replies (as far as I know) and I haven't seen anyone comparing homosexuality with criminal activity as rape and torture.

Also I don't feel anyone has been rude towards me in their replies.

Please take care about what you post, as this is a sensitive topic.

User Whatthehell has been removed from this thread for rudeness. Be polite, please, we can all do it.

Edited to add - also be polite when reporting a post. Reports with insults in them make us wonder if it is not just trolling of a different kind.

Out of interest. I don't want to know who's reported the thread, but I think it'd be interesting to know if they've been people posting in the thread or simply readers who've nor partaken.

 

[Neonchameleon]

That's not an excuse. I'm saying it's a great big universe and you are not.

I'm explaining that you are not the majority, and that as stated from the first quote, not all of us are as nice as we should be. You will have to put up with it, because your alternatives are slow moving to change minds or rapidly ending in gunfire when you go postal against the forces of jerkiness.

From all the women who led marches and all that brave stuff to change things, there were also women who were smart enough to keep their mouth shut in the years prior because they understood that it wasn't their time yet and they would suffer worse.
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Give people some space and a chance to grow. Rush them, and they'll get beligerent.

We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."
- Martin Luther King, Letters from a Birmingham Jail
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