Honestly - What is Eragon?

[IcyCool]

I'll respond to your points this time around, but we should probably make a new thread if you think this line of discussion will continue.

In my opinion? Both. Of course, I don't know how much validity my opinion really has. But it seems to me, a lot of the really stand out movies, tv shows, and books we like had both big sales and big talent. Granted, there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. The movie "Armageddon" was (if I recall correctly) the biggest money success that year (and I think its safe to say that most of us agree on its low level of quality -- as far as story goes).

Therein lies the rub. Is a work "low brow pedestrian" if you like it? Or does it only meet that criteria if you don't like it, but the "lowest common denominator" does? Talent has very little to do with success. Appeal has everything to do with it (IMHO, of course).

This is one of those times where I am the guy who put his foot in his mouth. For some reason, I had read your post too quickly and perceived a tone of sarcasm when there probably was no evidence that it was written with that intent. When I read your "What have you written? Do you have a popular fantasy series?" I thought that was a challenge marked with sarcasm. For this misunderstanding, I fully apologize.

The questions I asked were out of honest curiousity. Dustyboots is apparently someone who is a part of that industry, and likely has knowledge about it's inner workings that I do not. Also, I'd like to know what he/she has done, as I might enjoy it. No problem on the misunderstanding though. Words on a screen don't generally convey context or intent. Readers add those in all the time.

Oh, I completely agree....the main purpose is to make money with movies. But as we've seen, the innovative or just the "plain well done" movies make MORE money than the safe bet lowest common denominator property. Again, yes I'm aware of low brow pedestrian works have also made lots of money, but I think its usually the well crafted ones that hit it bigger more often.

But what qualifies as "low brow pedestrian"? Maybe I thought the dick and fart jokes in movies such as Clerks and Mallrats were "ground-breaking" or "innovative". And maybe you thought they were "low brow". These are subjective terms, to be sure.

We have a pretty solid way of measuring the value and success of a movie or novel, and it isn't with terms like "ground-breaking" or "innovative". It's called "sales".

Here's where the grey areas start to show themselves. What's going against the masses and what's not? To me, I think if the masses is the center line in which we creatively travel along, my intent was to say that we can veer slightly to the left and right of it to achieve uniqueness without putting mass appeal into jeopardy. Only when you veer drastically like ....let's say David Lynch's films, do yo lose mass appeal.

Certainly, predicting what will appeal to the majority of people isn't an exact science, and neither is it even easy.

I think its possible to maintain mass appeal and be highlly creative at the same time. This is the hard part of being an Editor, Producer, whatever.....

Again, what you find to be highly creative, I might find to be utter rubbish.

Having the skill to be able to see what is unique and new , but yet understandable to most people, is rare skill indeed. In my opinion, those who are both well skilled in writing as well as being a fan/consumer too are the ones that can see it the best. Lots of "suits" don't realize this and that's why I think we have lots of junk out there too.

there is nothing new under the sun

As true then as it is now.

Also, to your junk comment, I'll throw another platitude at you: "One man's trash is another man's treasure."

I don't mean to say that opinion is not a valuable point, but neither do I think that just because my friends and I think an author or actor is talented, they are.

I think talent is a very difficult thing to measure in such a subjective field.

That's a pretty safe tactic I must admit.

All I'm saying is, if I ever decide to write a novel, you can be sure I'm doing it from the comfort of the new house that was paid for by all the trashy romance books I wrote.

 

[Chain Lightning]

From the points your making, if its so hard to see what is low brow, what is high brow, what is treasure, what is not , what is the denominator, what is unique, then.....why write for the lowest common denominator at all?

If everything is so hard to predict, then you might as well just write the best you can and cross your fingers. Since its all subjective right? Then why waste time writing something that's not true to yourself?

 

[Merlion]

Eragon, to me, is a typical marketing sensation. It was written by a fifteen-year-old – that's the hook for buying it)

Now admitedly I havent looked, but the times I've seen the book in stores etc, I havent seen anything even mentioning the author's age, other than the inside cover.

And even if it were being used for marketing purposes, it has no impact on the merit of the book.

and if I still was fifteen years old myself, I'd probably like the book.

Well, as has been mentioned before in this thread, its being targeted at younger readers, not adults.

Which also still has little or no bearing on its merit.

If you're fifteen, you can't have as much practice as someone aged 21 might have.

Well, actually its possible that you can. It depends on the person, not the age. If the fifteen year old has been writing since age ten, and the 21 year old has been writting since age 19, the 15 year old has more experience.

I understand your point of course, and certainly experience has a huge effect on writting and other artistic undertakings. Age, however, may or may not. Usualy not.

telling me a book was written by a fifteen-year-old will not encourage me to buy it

Again, I havent personally experienced anything saying it should, and its certainly beside my point, which is that age has little to do with ability.

I've seen the kind of prose and poetry these kids publish on their websites.

I know you probably dont mean it that way, but that sounds extremely condescending. This comes back to my other big point in this thread...that a person's opinion has little or no bearing on the merit of a work. In fact,to me, any artistic work has positive merit, automatically and regardless. You apparently disliked the material you've seen on "these kids" websites, but that doesnt mean the material is bad. It means you didnt like it. It also doesnt mean that everything written by people under the age of 18 will be disliked by you, or be without merit.

Sure. Give me the boy's E-Mail adress, and I'll offer constructive criticism. Point me to a message board thread, and I'll simply say my piece

Of course. And my initial post wasnt aimed soley at you, it was aimed at the overall negative/condescending/elitist attitude that has been present in this thread. However you and most, although not all, of the people posting on here have tended to phrase their "piece" as statements of fact, rather than opinion.

 

[Merlion]

No, but if you want originality, Eragon is not the place to look for it. It's a legitimate complaint.
.

No, its a legitimate taste. You want something "new and different" in everything, and thats fine (although I'm not personally sure that such a thing exists...the stories have all pretty much been told at this point.) However, as at least one other person in this thread has said for themselves, some people dont neccesarily require that, and may even enjoy the "cliches"

Except that he didn't spend the time and energy to actually get it published. His parents are publishers, and they published it for him, and then used their contacts to get it sold to a larger publishing house, with the accompanying hype

My understanding is that a relative of one of the higher-ups at Knopf found the book, presented it, and got it published.

Besides, just because a kid goes to the trouble of writing something, that doesn't make it good, worthwhile or deserving of appreciation

Thats where we disagree entirely. First off, all of this applies just the same to an "adult" as to a "kid". Wether something is "good" is entirely a matter of individual opinion...obviously. Several people have posted here who have read this particular book...some liked it, some did not.
As for worthwhile and deserving of appreciation, I consider all works of creativity to be worthwhile and deserving of appreciation, regardless of the age of their creator, or the opinions of individuals.

Um, what?

I'm not a believer in our cultures idea that "children" and "adults" are seperate species. For legal reasons we have an arbitary cut off where people start being legally responsible for their actions, but things like maturity, responsibility and ability/talent are pretty much indepedent of age. I know people in their 40s who are almost totally incapable and irresponsible, and I've known teenagers who are the oposite. Consider that a century ago, a 15 year old would have been considered an "adult".

Obviously people grow and change with experience and time, but having been both 15 and 21 in the course of my life, I can say that while time did bring changes, I was pretty much the same person at both points.

As far as the writting ability part, I'm also not a big believer in our culture's concept of "prodigies", "genius" or the idea that some people are inherently more intelligent or able than others. I feel everyone has enormous potential.

Bah. Humbug. No free lunches. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the furnace. You can't break an omelette without counting a few eggs. Let sleeping dogs leap. And other mangled figures of eight. Speech. I mean speech

Uh, ok. I'm not sure I get all of what your saying, but I'm pretty sure I disagree with the overall theme. I feel anyone who undertakes a creative work, especially those starting out, should be encouraged, and offered useful feedback. Now I understand this is just a forum and not the writers email, and yea people are free to express their opinions, but opinions like "it sucks" and things essentially to the effect of "only a special genius 15 year old could write something worth reading" are examples of the saying about if you cant say something nice (or at least helpful) dont say anything at all.

 

[Merlion]

I've been writing professionally since I got out of college. That six years is more than "much different," it's a giant yawning gulf.
.

I think you misunderstand me. I wasnt saying anything about six more years of writting experience. I was saying essentially this: assume the 15 year old and the 21 year old are both just starting, or at least writting their first novel. The 15 year old is just as likely to do just as well as the 21 year old.

Also deeper than that, as I mentioned in my last post, I dont really believe "children" (especially teenagers) are all that much different from "adults", or that theres some sort of magic age at which you suddenly become more intelligent, enlightened or whatever. All of life is a learning and growing experience.

That's the role of parents and friends, not customers

I disagree, although I'm not sure about your use of the term "customer". Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion, but I don't believe in "slamming" creative works. If you didn't like it, say so. But thats just your opinion, don't try to act like your not liking it =it having no merit or being "bad". Thats why I dont really understand the existing of literary/art/film "critics", who get payed to try and tell us whats well done or badly done, when all it is is their opinion.

I'm not saying you did or are doing that, but thats what I was getting at. I feel people who choose to pursue their creativity should be encouraged, or at least not discouraged.

 

[Merlion]

From the points your making, if its so hard to see what is low brow, what is high brow, what is treasure, what is not , what is the denominator, what is unique, then.....why write for the lowest common denominator at all?

If everything is so hard to predict, then you might as well just write the best you can and cross your fingers. Since its all subjective right? Then why waste time writing something that's not true to yourself?

Quality and enjoyment are subjective, but sales are not. We know that trashy romance novels tend to sell well. We know that Stephen King style horror sells well. Of course its always going to be a gamble, but one can choose to try and write within the areas that an agent or publisher tells you are more likely to sell (or more likely for them to buy) and have a good chance of succeeding as far as sales. Although of course not totall assurance. And this may well be what you want to write anyway.


Of course, I dont believe there is a "lowest common denominator", or at least not the "lowest" part. If someone enjoys trashy romance novels, thats no different than my enjoyment of Tolkien or whatever....again to me all artistic works have merit, automatically. There is no "low brow".

But they can get at least a handle on what sells better than other things, and if what you want to write doesnt fall within an area reasonbly likely to sell well, then your taking more of a gamble

 

[Mark Hope]

No, its a legitimate taste.

No, It's a legitimate complaint. If you don't like the book, it's perfectly legitimate to complain about it. Of course it's just a matter of taste, but that's a truism and doesn't really tell us anything new.

You want something "new and different" in everything

No I don't. I just don't like Eragon's hackneyed approach to things.

However, as at least one other person in this thread has said for themselves, some people dont neccesarily require that, and may even enjoy the "cliches"

Cool. Nice for them. Not my cup of tea, though.

Thats where we disagree entirely. First off, all of this applies just the same to an "adult" as to a "kid". Wether something is "good" is entirely a matter of individual opinion...obviously. Several people have posted here who have read this particular book...some liked it, some did not.
As for worthwhile and deserving of appreciation, I consider all works of creativity to be worthwhile and deserving of appreciation, regardless of the age of their creator, or the opinions of individuals.

Great. Not of relevance to me at all, I'm afraid. Just vomiting words up onto paper doesn't make something worthy of appreciation as anything other than vomit. The proof is in the pudding. The act of creativity alone is not enough for me. The end result has to be something I like. If not, yeah, too bad.

I'm not a believer in our cultures idea that "children" and "adults" are seperate species. For legal reasons we have an arbitary cut off where people start being legally responsible for their actions, but things like maturity, responsibility and ability/talent are pretty much indepedent of age. I know people in their 40s who are almost totally incapable and irresponsible, and I've known teenagers who are the oposite. Consider that a century ago, a 15 year old would have been considered an "adult".

Sure, OK. Not really germane to my position, though. Which is that, generally speaking, a 21 year old and a 15 year old are not "much the same".

Obviously people grow and change with experience and time, but having been both 15 and 21 in the course of my life, I can say that while time did bring changes, I was pretty much the same person at both points.

Really? My commiserations.

As far as the writting ability part, I'm also not a big believer in our culture's concept of "prodigies", "genius" or the idea that some people are inherently more intelligent or able than others. I feel everyone has enormous potential.

Nah, don't agree with you there. Some folks have enormous potential. Some are just mud in the gene pool. Some are in between. That's just the way things are.

Uh, ok. I'm not sure I get all of what your saying, but I'm pretty sure I disagree with the overall theme. I feel anyone who undertakes a creative work, especially those starting out, should be encouraged, and offered useful feedback. Now I understand this is just a forum and not the writers email, and yea people are free to express their opinions, but opinions like "it sucks" and things essentially to the effect of "only a special genius 15 year old could write something worth reading" are examples of the saying about if you cant say something nice (or at least helpful) dont say anything at all.

Well, I think that I'll say anything I like, so long as it's within the CoC, thanks. If you don't like what folks say, just ignore it. They're just opinions (like pretty much everying else on discussion boards), and you know what they say about opinions...

 

[Merlion]

No, It's a legitimate complaint. If you don't like the book, it's perfectly legitimate to complain about it. Of course it's just a matter of taste, but that's a truism and doesn't really tell us anything new.


No I don't. I just don't like Eragon's hackneyed approach to things.


Cool. Nice for them. Not my cup of tea, though.


Great. Not of relevance to me at all, I'm afraid. Just vomiting words up onto paper doesn't make something worthy of appreciation as anything other than vomit. The proof is in the pudding. The act of creativity alone is not enough for me. The end result has to be something I like. If not, yeah, too bad.


Sure, OK. Not really germane to my position, though. Which is that, generally speaking, a 21 year old and a 15 year old are not "much the same".


Really? My commiserations.


Nah, don't agree with you there. Some folks have enormous potential. Some are just mud in the gene pool. Some are in between. That's just the way things are.



Well, I think that I'll say anything I like, so long as it's within the CoC, thanks. If you don't like what folks say, just ignore it. They're just opinions (like pretty much everying else on discussion boards), and you know what they say about opinions...

Just bear in mind, everything your saying aplies to you as well. Again, just because you don't like a book, doesnt make it bad, or mud, or worthless. It means you, personally dont like it.

Although your need to resort to sarcasm and implied insults to express your opinion isnt terribly flattering of you.

Some things however, are facts and not opinions. Such as the fact that when someone puts their thoughts and heart into something, it has merit. The fact that it has merit doesnt mean you have to like it, but it does mean that your disliking it does not change the fact that it still has merit.

It sounds like you've recieved a lot of bad treatment in your life, to feel so negatively about everyone and everything, and if thats the case then I empathize with you.

On the other hand, if you just like being insulting and overly negative about everything, it robs your opinions of most of their meaning or usefulness.


Also note that several of the things in that post are not within the CoC, at least as I see it, since I found several points in your post to be directly insulting, and a great deal of it to be mildly offensive.

I wonder how you would feel about someone refering to the products of your mind and effort as "vomit.."

 

[Mark Hope]

Just bear in mind, everything your saying aplies to you as well. Again, just because you don't like a book, doesnt make it bad, or mud, or worthless. It means you, personally dont like it.

That is the sum total of what I am saying, yes.

Although your need to resort to sarcasm and implied insults to express your opinion isnt terribly flattering of you.

I'm not interested in appearing to be likeable and I'm not being sarcastic in the slightest. And I'm not implying insults either. Where I don't like something, I say so up front. Anything else is coming from your own perceptions.

Some things however, are facts and not opinions. Such as the fact that when someone puts their thoughts and heart into something, it has merit. The fact that it has merit doesnt mean you have to like it, but it does mean that your disliking it does not change the fact that it still has merit.

It's just your opinion that creativity on its own is deserving of merit, irrespective of the outcome. I don't agree. These are just our respective opinions. No facts there at all.

It sounds like you've recieved a lot of bad treatment in your life, to feel so negatively about everyone and everything, and if thats the case then I empathize with you.

I've had a particularly blessed life so far, thanks. Save your sympathy for the devil ...

On the other hand, if you just like being insulting and overly negative about everything, it robs your opinions of most of their meaning or usefulness.

Again, I'm just talking about Eragon here, along with my opinions on whether creativity is meritorious in its own right. That's not "everything" and that's not insulting or overly negative either. I just don't like the book and I think that creative works should be judged on their actual artistic merits, not simply on the fact that they are creative works. But if you can't make that distinction, or need to ascribe malice to me in order to strengthen your own position, then go for it. I'm sure I'll lie awake tonight worrying about it (yeah, that bit is sarcasm - oh well...)

 

[Mark Hope]

Also note that several of the things in that post are not within the CoC, at least as I see it, since I found several points in your post to be directly insulting, and a great deal of it to be mildly offensive.

Really? That's too bad. Feel free to report me if I have trampled on your sensibilities.

I wonder how you would feel about someone refering to the products of your mind and effort as "vomit.."

I would shrug and move on. And maybe share a laugh with the guy too. Who gives a monkey about what people think so long as you are proud of your work?