D&D 5E Hope for an open GSL?

[JoeGKushner]

For what it's worth, I don't think the OGL was the ONLY thing to beat 4e upside the head with an ugly stick.

These are things I've mentioned before but...

Cancellation of the Dragon/Dungeon magazines as physical entities. Some people are still pissedabout this.

Loss of fans/customers when Character Builder went online after being lied to for months about what was happening.

In general, poor marketing so you might want to combine the later half of that one above with a general "your game sucks" bit that WoTC relied on.

Dragon and Dungeon becoming pale shadows of what they used to be. At one point they said that preview material was going to be in addition to the regular material but take a look at the earlier digital issues and the later ones and well, it doesn't quite appear to be true. This doesn't count the actual quality of the magazines which some say has improved lately but took a nose dive in terms of updating, making it into a compilation at the end of the month and other little things.

No method for third party to get into the DDI. Sure, that's not necessarily a make/break but for many people if you're already paying for the service and the whole non-lack of customer rules ability for a while (although I haven't subed for a while myself.)

WoTC just being wrong on several things. Anyone remember when buying the physical product was supposed to get you the PDF for a $1 or $2 according to 'the Rouse' How about the 'virtual table top' or the 'virtual visual character' and other bits? Hell, how about the first quarter of cancelled products this year?

The PDF thing. Anyone remember that and the 'soon' bits from WoTC? Mind you, this might go under marketing too but as it still hasn't been... resolved yet.

In short, WoTC has done, and will probably continue to do things that make themselves look bad and loses customers even as they strive to gain new ones.

Just my opinion.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

Cancellation of the Dragon/Dungeon magazines as physical entities. Some people are still pissedabout this.

/snip

Dragon and Dungeon becoming pale shadows of what they used to be. At one point they said that preview material was going to be in addition to the regular material but take a look at the earlier digital issues and the later ones and well, it doesn't quite appear to be true. This doesn't count the actual quality of the magazines which some say has improved lately but took a nose dive in terms of updating, making it into a compilation at the end of the month and other little things.

/snip

Umm, I really have to question this.

Look, it's a matter of public record that at it's height in 3e, Dungeon and Dragon, combined, had about 50000 subscribers. That was as good as it ever got. And, note, that's the combined subs, not actual people because some people, like me, had subs to both magazines.

2 years of 4e later, we have just shy of 70 000 subscribers for the DDI. That means that about 50% MORE people have access to Dungeon and Dragon than did during 3e. I'd probably go so far as to say that's more than at any other time than the mid 80's when Dragon was at its all time highest.

Look, I understand that people might not like the online content. I get that. But, pointing to Dungeon and Dragon as failures is ridiculous.

Hrm, I'll take your magazine, increase its readership by 50% (that's THREE TIMES more Dungeon and twice more Dragon), remove the needs for going through the US Postal Service and magazine distribution channels (for a giggle, ask Erik Mona or James Jacobs what they think of the magazine distribution channels - the answer is possibly not grandma friendly) AND I'm going to give you 100% artistic control over your magazine.

Dude, if you think that's a failure, I'd really hate to see what you think is a success.

I got a DDI sub in September, and, at that time, there was just under 60K subscribers. ((*Checks his profile*)) Currently, there are 68480 members. That's about 12% growth in six months. Again, if you call that failure, just what would you consider a success?

 

[Jawsh]

subscriber numbers is one thing. quality (and consistency) of content is a different matter. Dungeon and Dragon (or any magazine) can be expected to increase in readership/subscriptions, when the price is lowered and the distribution system is widened. Hell, readership should have tripled, if WotC did the transition from dead tree to digital correctly.

Personally I don't have a lot of complaints about Dungeon and Dragon. I was a casual reader who occasionally picked up an issue in the game store. Now I don't subscribe at all. The loss of my patronage is very small to WotC.

That's about 12% growth in six months. Again, if you call that failure, just what would you consider a success?

I can't speak for JoeGKushner, but I'd settle for 100% over six months. I know I said triple, but I'm willing to be reasonable. When you drastically lower the price and offer a more instant distribution, you should expect more than a trickle of 2% increase per month.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Oh, so all of the subscribers for the DDI are doing it for the magazines and NOT the character builder. Good to know.

Umm, I really have to question this.

Look, it's a matter of public record that at it's height in 3e, Dungeon and Dragon, combined, had about 50000 subscribers. That was as good as it ever got. And, note, that's the combined subs, not actual people because some people, like me, had subs to both magazines.

2 years of 4e later, we have just shy of 70 000 subscribers for the DDI. That means that about 50% MORE people have access to Dungeon and Dragon than did during 3e. I'd probably go so far as to say that's more than at any other time than the mid 80's when Dragon was at its all time highest.

Look, I understand that people might not like the online content. I get that. But, pointing to Dungeon and Dragon as failures is ridiculous.

Hrm, I'll take your magazine, increase its readership by 50% (that's THREE TIMES more Dungeon and twice more Dragon), remove the needs for going through the US Postal Service and magazine distribution channels (for a giggle, ask Erik Mona or James Jacobs what they think of the magazine distribution channels - the answer is possibly not grandma friendly) AND I'm going to give you 100% artistic control over your magazine.

Dude, if you think that's a failure, I'd really hate to see what you think is a success.

I got a DDI sub in September, and, at that time, there was just under 60K subscribers. ((*Checks his profile*)) Currently, there are 68480 members. That's about 12% growth in six months. Again, if you call that failure, just what would you consider a success?

 

[Hussar]

JoeG - what difference does that make? Whether people are coming for the character builder or Dragon, the fact of the matter is, within 2 years of relaunching a magazine, they have significantly more subscribers than ever before.

Now barring utterly ridiculous expectations how is a 50% growth in subs not a success?

You're the one saying that Dungeon and Dragon are "pale shadows of what they used to be". Yet, despite that, Dungeon and Dragon are being seen by thousands more people every month than they ever did before. Remember, that 50K number was for the magazine subs combined. Jawsh's ridiculous expectation HAS ACTUALLY BEEN REACHED. Dragon has 200% more subscribers than ever before. Dungeon has 300% more.

And, mind you, this is only the confirmed subs. How many unconfirmed there are, we have no idea. It could easily be 100k subs if some estimates are accurate. That would put them at 200% over total already.

Not bad for a pale shadow.

So, again, I ask, what would you consider a success?

 

[Alzrius]

JoeG - what difference does that make? Whether people are coming for the character builder or Dragon, the fact of the matter is, within 2 years of relaunching a magazine, they have significantly more subscribers than ever before.

Now barring utterly ridiculous expectations how is a 50% growth in subs not a success?

It's not a success because there's a difference in distributing something as its own thing, and bundling it with the purchase of something else.

If one person sets up a shop that sells fuzzy dice and moves X number of them in a month, and a car dealership down the street gives away fuzzy dice with each new car sold and sells (X times 1.5) new cars in a month, it's specious for the car dealer to claim "we're more successful at selling fuzzy dice."

This becomes particularly true if that statement is then presented as evidence of better-quality product. If the car dealer's fuzzy dice are made of cheaper materials, a claim of "our fuzzy dice are of superior make to our competitor's - why else would we have sold more?" is incredibly spurious.

 

[IronWolf]

You must spread some Experience Points around before giving it to Alzrius again.....

 

[MoxieFu]

It's not a success because there's a difference in distributing something as its own thing, and bundling it with the purchase of something else.

If one person sets up a shop that sells fuzzy dice and moves X number of them in a month, and a car dealership down the street gives away fuzzy dice with each new car sold and sells (X times 1.5) new cars in a month, it's specious for the car dealer to claim "we're more successful at selling fuzzy dice."

This becomes particularly true if that statement is then presented as evidence of better-quality product. If the car dealer's fuzzy dice are made of cheaper materials, a claim of "our fuzzy dice are of superior make to our competitor's - why else would we have sold more?" is incredibly spurious.

Also the sheer numbers of fuzzy dice being sold tells you nothing about profitability. If it costs you MORE to make those fuzzy dice than you get for selling them, an increase in numbers reflects how much more money you are actually LOSING.

 

[Henry]

And, mind you, this is only the confirmed subs. How many unconfirmed there are, we have no idea. It could easily be 100k subs if some estimates are accurate. That would put them at 200% over total already.

Not bad for a pale shadow.

So, again, I ask, what would you consider a success?

All this begs the question -- I'd LOVE to know what kinds of sales figures the Paizo Adventure Paths have.

 

[MoxieFu]

All this begs the question -- I'd LOVE to know what kinds of sales figures the Paizo Adventure Paths have.

Wouldn't it be nice to see ALL the cards on the table?