Hopes For The Fighter (esp Eldritch Knight)

[Frozen_Heart]

The smite spells not being part of the Eldritch Knight just don't make sense.

That's a simple adjustment that would help a lot

Sounds like a lot of people want them 100% locked down onto paladin too, so eldritch knight might not even be able to get them via feats.

 

[WanderingMystic]

Sounds like a lot of people want them 100% locked down onto paladin too, so eldritch knight might not even be able to get them via feats.

And this is something I can not understand. A war cleric should be able to smite, an Eldritch knight should be able to smite, a blade singer should be able to smite even a bladelock should be able to smite. Now when I say smite I am referring to specifically the concept of a bonus action spell that enhances a melee attack.

If clerics lose the war domain and they say that instead you should just play a paladin then I can understand clerics not getting them. The bladesinger has so many spell slots that I understand why they don't have them even if I think they are thematically appropriate. Your bladlock and your Eldritch knight however are the closest things we get to a true gish character without multi classing so they should both be able to infuse their spells into their weapons. Your blade lock has so few spell slots and has hex so they might not even care about it but for your Eldritch knight it just makes sense.

 

[WanderingMystic]

Probably not, sadly. Hopefully it’s at least not just the same thing as the Bladesinger. That would be exceedingly weak sauce.

As long as it is changed so that they can sacrifice one of their melee attacks to make a cantrips instead of the if you cast a cantrips you can make 1 melee attack that it and the valor bard have now I will be happy. Giving up 3 attacks at level 11 in order to be able to cast 1 cantrips and use my bonus action to make an attack (net 2 attacks lost) is just not worth it at all and has been the biggest hindrance with the class. That and the fact that it doesn't even come online until level 7.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

And this is something I can not understand. A war cleric should be able to smite, an Eldritch knight should be able to smite, a blade singer should be able to smite even a bladelock should be able to smite. Now when I say smite I am referring to specifically the concept of a bonus action spell that enhances a melee attack.

If clerics lose the war domain and they say that instead you should just play a paladin then I can understand clerics not getting them. The bladesinger has so many spell slots that I understand why they don't have them even if I think they are thematically appropriate. Your bladlock and your Eldritch knight however are the closest things we get to a true gish character without multi classing so they should both be able to infuse their spells into their weapons. Your blade lock has so few spell slots and has hex so they might not even care about it but for your Eldritch knight it just makes sense.

The issue is the universal spell lists. A paladins identity is about smiting, but when a cleric can just use the same spells but earlier and more powerful, it kinda feels bad. But in an attempt to prevent this, peoples solutions prevent other gishes being able to mix combat and magic at all.

Meanwhile that has been the entire identity of the arcane gish since the 3.5e duskblade and the 4e swordmage (and the pathfinder magus).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The smite spells not being part of the Eldritch Knight just don't make sense.

That's a simple adjustment that would help a lot

IMO what is needed is some “smite” spells designed to be arcane, and only the Paladin gets the classic ones.

Otherwise yeah, agreed.

 

[bedir than]

IMO what is needed is some “smite” spells designed to be arcane, and only the Paladin gets the classic ones.

Otherwise yeah, agreed.

What's divine or arcana about Thunderous Smite?

 

[Frozen_Heart]

IMO what is needed is some “smite” spells designed to be arcane, and only the Paladin gets the classic ones.

Otherwise yeah, agreed.

Maybe call them 'strike' spells to stop the paladin players complaining.

'Flaming Strike' rather than 'Searing Smite'. Both could do fire damage, but the rider effect could be a lil different.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

What's divine or arcana about Thunderous Smite?

The Smite part, for a start. There’s a reason the Ranger’s versions don’t have smite in the name.

Rename it and I don’t care, bc Thunder damage was always kinda off to me for a holy warrior’s smite anyway, but the Paladin should have smites, the various arcane gish options should have spells that sound like arcane spells.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Maybe call them 'strike' spells to stop the paladin players complaining.

'Flaming Strike' rather than 'Searing Smite'. Both could do fire damage, but the rider effect could be a lil different.

Sure. I’d also have them do different things generally, like steal heavily from weird swordmage powers for the arcane weapon attack spells, keep paladins strongly “attack, bonus damage, rider”, ranger has their control effects, etc.

 

[Incenjucar]

I'd prefer a mystic warrior class that can use either arcane, divine, or primal magic, or psionics, with options to expand into additional power sources a bit like the lore bard.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'd prefer a mystic warrior class that can use either arcane, divine, or primal magic, or psionics, with options to expand into additional power sources a bit like the lore bard.

Huh. In my rewrites of the monk it never occurred to me to do that.

I wonder…

 

[Vaalingrade]

How about Fighting Styles that you can turn on to do magical stuff? This could be where concepts like Echo Knight et all can live. You pick a style at levels X, Y and Z, and now the Flicker Knight teleports a short distance on a hit, the Knight Radiant blinds enemies when they are hit, the Elemental Knight does elemental damage and has a damage shield, the Knights of Shields throws up DR wards and friend shields, etc, etc.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

So my favorite kind of Fighter is one with a spellbook, and we almost got that in 2014.

yeah imagine if the EK had a spell book but only learned the spells that are currently listed as known but can then learn any new wizard ones they find...

So, while all the “no magic!” folks talk about the purely martial fighter elsewhere, here we are gonna talk fighter as swordmage, which means the Eldritch Knight.

I like the armor and the battlesmith artificer better then the EK right now but yeah we need more gish talk

The way I see it, EK needs the following:

• A fighting Style that is magic and doesn’t replace the attack action
  • This means no “you learn two cantrips”. No. Your attacks have magic in them. Maybe they add 1d4 elemental damage of your choice once per turn, or maybe it lets you use a bonus action to magic your sword more impressively
• A choice at level 3 between a spellbook, whatever that looks like in 2024, and something else. Maybe 3 things, maybe to make it play like a mini wizard, sorcerer, or warlock?
  • So maybe spellbook (with more spells prepared or a slice of whatever makes wizards cool in 2024), metamagic, or a warlock invocation?
• Better spells, or a slot=damage feature
• The ability to cast a cantrip as a bonus action or as a reaction if soemthing lets them make an attack as a reaction, around level 5
• More significance on thier bonded weapon. Maybe it upgrades as a magic item as you level? The EK’s weapon should be the sort of thing gets a Name

What’s your list? Is there anything else the base class can do to support magical subclasses without ticking off no-magic fighter fans?

I always imagine video game attacks...
when at full health make a str or dex attack at range 20ft, if you hit deal as if you hit with your melee weapon but as force damage
strike the ground and a line for 30ft in front of you erupts in blades and weapons every creature takes damage equal to being hit by you in melee dex save for half

 

[doctorbadwolf]

yeah imagine if the EK had a spell book but only learned the spells that are currently listed as known but can then learn any new wizard ones they find...

I like the armor and the battlesmith artificer better then the EK right now but yeah we need more gish talk

I always imagine video game attacks...
when at full health make a str or dex attack at range 20ft, if you hit deal as if you hit with your melee weapon but as force damage
strike the ground and a line for 30ft in front of you erupts in blades and weapons every creature takes damage equal to being hit by you in melee dex save for half

Hell yes. I love stuff like that, and that’s exactly the sort of thing that should be the arcane spell-strike type spells.

 

[Gadget]

Personally, I've felt that the Echo Knight, and Rune Knight filled the role better than the Eldritch Knight. Sure, the EK was more generic in flavor, but the plain Jane 1/3 caster thing did not work that well, barring some arguably overtuned spells like shield.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Personally, I've felt that the Echo Knight, and Rune Knight filled the role better than the Eldritch Knight. Sure, the EK was more generic in flavor, but the plain Jane 1/3 caster thing did not work that well, barring some arguably overtuned spells like shield.

It works great, until you hit levels where casting a spells stops you doing the classes main thing and that main thing has gotten much more powerful than it started.

It being “generic” has nothing to do with why it’s unsatisfying to play.

 

[Gadget]

It works great, until you hit levels where casting a spells stops you doing the classes main thing and that main thing has gotten much more powerful than it started.

It being “generic” has nothing to do with why it’s unsatisfying to play.

I disagree. Being a 1/3 caster meant you were usually bringing a knife to a gun fight for much of your spellcasting. The focus on evocation spells in particular exacerbated this issue. It worked okay for abjuration and utility spells, but even then, it was only okay. Paladin and Hexblade gave much more of a 'magical fighter' vibe, albeit one with more focused flavor.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I disagree. Being a 1/3 caster meant you were usually bringing a knife to a gun fight for much of your spellcasting. The focus on evocation spells in particular exacerbated this issue. It worked okay for abjuration and utility spells, but even then, it was only okay. Paladin and Hexblade gave much more of a 'magical fighter' vibe, albeit one with more focused flavor.

From quite a lot of experience, hard disagree.

Like, most fights at a given level, a full Caster isn’t casting all thier damage spells with their highest slots. The EK generally uses evocation to cover whatever their weapons don’t, like ranged attacks on a strength build, and everything else for defense and utility. And most 1st level Abjurations are just as good at level 1 as they are at low levels. Absorb elements scales, sure, but the half damage is the key component of the spell, not the bonus damage. Shield is as good at 20 as at lvl 1.

Utilities like spider climb never stop being good spells. Even Scorching Ray does more damage than a basic attack action until level 11.

 

[WanderingMystic]

I think a big part is that people are expecting to be able to cast a fireball or similar spell in every combat and then back up the rest with a fighters weapons where it is use your slots for shield and scorching ray

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think a big part is that people are expecting to be able to cast a fireball or similar spell in every combat and then back up the rest with a fighters weapons where it is use your slots for shield and scorching ray

Yeah waiting till high level for fireball and haste sucks tbh.

I wish they’d try to make partial casters gain spell levels at the same levels as full casters, and just progress spells slots more slowly.