Hordes of the Abyss: Q&A

[Ripzerai]

I still feel like there has been no product that really focused on "cults" ala a demon cult -- something that is not like a cleric, something that's maybe more limited in scope (maybe an NPC class) that has a limited repertoire of themed schticks as well as some social/criminal benefits. I'm thinking of a social outcast who finds a demon to teach him a trick or two, uses it and his new confidence to wrangle a few followers, and they make mischief in a town. That sort of thing. Maybe there was something in BoVD that I missed as I haven't read that one thoroughly or recently.

There's the Demonologist from the Book of Vile Darkness, and the Thaumaturgist from Green Ronin's Book of Fiends.

 

[Ripzerai]

Also, saying that keeping DL separate from the Great Wheel does great damage to either setting is pretty ridiculous, IMO.

It depends on what you think "great damage" is. It means one of the quarters of the Marketplace Eternal in the Outlands is gone, several Abyssal layers and realms throughout the Outer Planes are gone, Krynnish expatriates like Torvald the dwarf and Factol Ambar of the Athar have their origins retconned, and it means one of the three parts of the Radiant Triangle in the Spelljammer setting are gone. It means the events of the Forgotten Realms novel Tymora's Luck didn't happen, since kender, Sirrion, and Paladine/Fizban were fundamental to it.

By contrast, keeping Krynn in the Great Wheel doesn't hurt Krynn at all. It's fine that the cosmology looks different from inside looking out than it does from outside looking in - it doesn't mean the Krynnish are stupid or ignorant, only that their perspective is different.

It's also fine to say that in a Dragonlance campaign Krynn is seperate, while in a Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, or Forgotten Realms campaign it's integrated; different campaigns have different needs, and there's no reason to cut off the ease of other adventures just because one personally likes one type more.

Which might be basically what you were saying - go with the guys writing the specific setting. In a Spelljammer campaign, you might go with the guys who wrote that setting said, while in a Dragonlance campaign, go with what those guys said. In Hordes of the Abyss, go with what the guy writing that said.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Yeah, that's what I mean. In a PS game, do the PS thing; in a DL game, do the DL thing.

 

[Tinker Gnome]

I think what Mr. Banks was saying was that DL was NEVER meant to be a part of the Great Wheel, it just go shoved in there when it was never supposed to be there.

EDIT: I admit, this is also somewhat of a personal issue for me, as I DESPISE Planescape, so I loathe the idea of it being connected to Krynn in any way.

 

[Ripzerai]

I think what Mr. Banks was saying was that DL was NEVER meant to be a part of the Great Wheel

It was meant to be part of the Great Wheel in just about every setting other than DL, is what I'm saying.

 

[M.L. Martin]

DL was never clear on its planar position until 3rd Edition, really; DL Adventures included a description of the 'godly' realms that was ambiguous, while the Manual of the Planes, published later that same year, explicitly integrated DL into the cosmology. Demogorgon showed up in the second DL story published, "A Stone's Throw Away", albeit not by name, and Takhisis was intended to be Tiamat at some point during the design, although that faded out as the project progressed.

I say, declare them to be a Chemosh and Hiddukel that fled Krynn in the timeline when Raistlin killed the other gods, say Soth went to Ravenloft from that same timeline, and all's good.

BTW, James, Erik, I've got a tidbit that must go into the 'Demogorgon in the Real World' sidebar when the Demonomicon gets around to him:

"There are two variants in the manuscripts [of Lactantius' commentaries on Statius' Thebaid, I believe]; one is demogorgona, the other demogorgon. From the latter of these corruptions, later ages evolved a completely new deity, Demogorgon, who was to enjoy a distinguished literary career in Boccaccio's Genealogy of the Gods, in Spenser, in Milton, and in Shelley. This is perhaps the only time a scribal blunder underwent an apotheosis."--C. S. Lewis, The Discarded Image, pp. 39-40, Cambridge University Press, Canto edition



Matthew L. Martin

 

[frankthedm]

Who is Dagon? I'm asuming it's not the Cthulhu mythos Dagon, and nothing like the Amorite God of grain and agriculture.

Obox-ob and Dagon were mentioned in the list of undefined demon lords in the original MMII.

Dagon is Cthulhu for the D&D game. An ancient evil, older than the Tanar’ri, worshiped by ancient communities of fish men [Kuo-toa that never fled to the Underdark], has the ability to drive mortals to suicide and can inflict permanent crippling phobias. Nope, nothing lovecraftian there….Ia! Ia! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

He looks somewhat close to the Upcoming Sota Toys:Nightmares of Lovecraft Dagon too.

 

[Mr.Black]

Dagon is Cthulhu for the D&D game.

Nah. Cthulhu is the next demon prince to be covered in Dragon.

 

[Erik Mona]

EDIT: I admit, this is also somewhat of a personal issue for me, as I DESPISE Planescape, so I loathe the idea of it being connected to Krynn in any way.

That's unfortunate. Once you get past the inane verbal posturing that infected the first year or so of releases, it really marks a high-point of TSR's creative development.

--Erik

 

[Nightfall]

Yeah especially Dead Gods.