[Hordes of the Abyss] Using, rather than changing

[Mouseferatu]

(Note: I'm fully aware that none of this is supported in any existing planar material. I'm putting it forth as an alternate interpretation that I think could be pretty cool, not a variant on "canon.")

One of the biggest complaints leveled against the baseline stats for the demon lords in FC1:HotA is that they're barely more powerful than other powerful demons, such as balors or myrmyxicuses (myrmyxici?). Now, this doesn't bother me, because I'm going with the interpretation that the stats as presented are a baseline, and aren't intended to be used as written except as avatars.

But...

The demons of the Abyss are all about chaos and random violence. They're not devils. They don't have a strict hierarchy.

So what about a version of the multiverse where the demon lords really aren't much more powerful than other powerful demons? Maybe Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, et al. haven't been lords and princes for millennia, but they just happen to be the ones who are in control at the moment? There's a part of me that finds a great deal of appeal in the notion that the ranks of the demon lords shift on a semi-regular basis, maybe even as frequently as several times a century. I think, if played properly, it could actually add to the chaotic feel of the Abyss, and further differentiate the demons from their lawful Hellish counterparts, who do have a strict hierarchy that has lasted (more or less) for thousands of years. It would also lead to a lot of conflicts between demonic cults, as the Abyssal struggles for ascension are mirrored in their mortal servants.

Again, not in-line with planar material as written, but I think it could make for a really interesting variant.

 

[DaveMage]

So what about a version of the multiverse where the demon lords really aren't much more powerful than other powerful demons? Maybe Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, et al. haven't been lords and princes for millennia, but they just happen to be the ones who are in control at the moment? There's a part of me that finds a great deal of appeal in the notion that the ranks of the demon lords shift on a semi-regular basis, maybe even as frequently as several times a century. I think, if played properly, it could actually add to the chaotic feel of the Abyss, and further differentiate the demons from their lawful Hellish counterparts, who do have a strict hierarchy that has lasted (more or less) for thousands of years. It would also lead to a lot of conflicts between demonic cults, as the Abyssal struggles for ascension are mirrored in their mortal servants.

Again, not in-line with planar material as written, but I think it could make for a really interesting variant.

At the power rating in FC1 (and with the current D&D game ruleset), what you are proposing makes perfect sense, and is kind of how I've always played them. After all, if PCs (albeit rare ones) can rise to beyond 20th level (30, 40, etc.), they can certainly eliminate a few puny CR 20-23 creatures - especially when you think of other races piling on PC classes. Think how a 20th level illithid wizard would deal with these things - not to mention a 30th level lich, who'd have the demon lords (except Orcus) for breakfast.

I've always viewed the demon & devil lords as potential PC targets. I know many here like to treat the lords as divine, but I see them more as BBEGs to be destroyed.

 

[eris404]

I really like this idea. There's a lot of room to expand, to make and introduce new demonic princes and would-be princes. It also makes for interesting NPCs who are gathering power in order to invade and take over a demon lord's territory (especial for epic level campaigns). It also makes the need for mortal followers all the greater. That gives me a lot of new ideas, actually.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Some kind of rejuvenation ability could be tacked on as well. When you kill a demon prince, it comes back (kinda like a lich or a ghost). One alternative is that *you* turn into that demon prince. I suppose if several were involved in killing Demogorgon, some might come back as Demogorgon's main lieutenants.

That would be awfully cruel of a DM, I suppose, though if the process is gradual enough it could be the seed of a new adventure arc.

 

[countgray]

Just slap on some class levels!

I kind of like your idea. Although, I also like the sense of history and textured story that demon princes with detailed backgrounds impart to the game.

Then again, I really have no issue with demon lords being physically weak, or at least on par with their underlings. After all, Hitler was not particularly strong or physically imposing. Any one of his soldiers could probably have taken him. But they didn't.

Sheer force of personality, far more than any personal might one may have, has got to have contributed heavily to any demon prince's rise. Anyway, I also figure after a few decades, centuries or milennia they would have to have some class levels to augment their physical stats.

I don't see why you couldn't start with some basic physical stats of around CR 20 and then slap on enough fighter, thief, barbarian, wizard, cleric levels and PRC's as appropriate to reflect the wisdom and experience they have acquired in all that time clawing their way up the ladder, tooth and nail and tentacle.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Some kind of rejuvenation ability could be tacked on as well. When you kill a demon prince, it comes back (kinda like a lich or a ghost). One alternative is that *you* turn into that demon prince. I suppose if several were involved in killing Demogorgon, some might come back as Demogorgon's main lieutenants.

Or as multiple heads ...

 

[Barak]

But, a point you forgot, Ari, is that it totally goes against canon!

...

Oh. You did point that out.

I do like the idea that, when you kill ultimate evil, you become it. Because, somehow, you had to use similar ways to achieve it. Obviously, in the case of other demons, that isn't even hard to accomplish. And rare is the PC who gets to that point totally unblemished.

"So.. You kill me. Let's see if you last longer than I did."

 

[ruleslawyer]

Someone just needs to shoot this entire "canon" thing in the head and be done with. Canon is a problematic enough concept when applied to collections of academia beyond the religious; it's a game, people. Moreover, there have been at least four takes on the demon lords (far more on the archdevils), so AFAICT, "canon" just means picking whatever previous take you like and trying to claim that it's somehow "authoritative."

As for the idea: It's what I do on a slightly amped-up basis. My Abyss is a chaotic soup of internecine conflict in which the (nominally) stronger, cleverer, or luckier fiends beat out their weaker, stupider, or less fortunate rivals to claw their way to the top... perhaps for milennia, perhaps mere days or weeks. Thrown into the mix are ambitious mortals, divine beings, and creatures ranging from orc hero-deities to dragons. Some "lesser" demons may have sufficient power to challenge their theoretical betters; unlike the strict hierarchy of the Nine Hells, in which cornugons clearly sit below pit fiends below Dukes of Hell, a powerful balor (like Ter-Soth) may have his own layer, or may be the servant of a mightier demon (in this case, Demogorgon) even while lesser balors have their own domains. A powerful balor (say, an advanced type with some class levels) might be a greater terror in battle even than some self-proclaimed "lords" or "princes."

In my Hells, OTOH, there's a strict pecking order, but the divisions between power levels are still relatively fine, specifically because I like some jockeying for position. A powerful archdevil like Armaros or Gargoth could probably defeat one of the Lords of the Nine in single combat; it's only politics that keeps them down.

It's one reason why I'm not so fond of archfiends being on par with deities in power. I like the idea that they're more like extraplanar analogues of prime plane rulers, with the same competencies and concerns.

 

[Nightfall]

Listen, if Ghostwalk, FR and even GH treat Orcus and Demogorgon with deific power, why shouldn't they get some props/power boosts? I mean that's why the gods aren't bossing them around right now.

 

[Pants]

Listen, if Ghostwalk, FR and even GH treat Orcus and Demogorgon with deific power, why shouldn't they get some props/power boosts? I mean that's why the gods aren't bossing them around right now.

This. Is. Not. The. Thread. For. This.

Take it elsewhere please.