Hordes of the Abyss.

[DaveMage]

If, on the other hand, you're using him as the "big bad" in a traditional D&D campaign, a CR 30 stat block isn't entirely helpful.

--Erik Mona

For my group, it's very helpful. We've played an epic campaign and Demogorgon *is* the big bad at the end. We're fighting him in his Abysm - I most certainly need him to be CR 30!

I can live with the "lesser powered outside the home plane" theory, though.

 

[Psion]

Heh.

This is the other side of the "stat blocks for gods arguments."

And as someone who has often commented that the stats in DDG are so overpowered as to be useless for all but the most vanishingly rare campaign, I'd be hypocritical if I offered anything but that I rather appreciate that they got that and applied some sense here.

In Navy terms, Erik (& HoA team-members), Bravo Zulu.

 

[smootrk]

I like having the Lords at a power level that actually allows them to be defeated by players in a normal (as in non-epic superpowered) game. I doubt my players would ever meet those guys otherwise, so I welcome that change.

 

[DaveMage]

Heh.

This is the other side of the "stat blocks for gods arguments."

And as someone who has often commented that the stats in DDG are so overpowered as to be useless for all but the most vanishingly rare campaign, I'd be hypocritical if I offered anything but that I rather appreciate that they got that and applied some sense here.

In Navy terms, Erik (& HoA team-members), Bravo Zulu.

I don't think it's the same thing. Stat blocks for gods (except perheps demigods) put them way, way over CR 30. I'd estimate CR 50+ easy.

And it's not about applying "sense" so much that in BoVD they were set at a certain level. All demons and devils *increased* in power in 3.5. It does not make sense that the demon lords would *lose* power in 3.5.

 

[heirodule]

Demogorgon, for example, has 499 hit points and 27 Hit Dice

That's 18.481 hp per Hit Die. Outsiders get a D8, so demogorgon has a con of 38-39, and average HP for hd. Maybe a Toughness feat somewhere in there too (Demogorgon's tough, right?)

I for one am glad to have CR 18-24 demon lords. Thanks!

If people want CR 30 ecnounters, you can always have them meet Demogorgon plus 8 Balors.

Do we have Thrall PrCs?

What we need is a "in lair template". Or maybe just a simple percentage modifyer that increases HP, to hit, AC, etc.

Then the single line in the stat block could read

% in lair

 

[Psion]

And it's not about applying "sense" so much that in BoVD they were set at a certain level. All demons and devils *increased* in power in 3.5. It does not make sense that the demon lords would *lose* power in 3.5.

You assume a correlation. I don't think it's that simple. I am comfortable with explanations that might be a bit deeper than "demon lords are bigger badder demons."

At any rate, I consider this issue secondary to playability/utility issues.

 

[Mr.Black]

Well at least we know that the demon lords are not the same as the ones printed in Dungeon magazine. I'll wait to see the product before making any hasty decisions, but if I see a buff Orcus or CR 20 Jubilex I may have to bang my head against the wall until I fall unconscious.

Thanks Joe for the info. Is there any chance you could list the non-unique demons and their CRs, or at least some of the tannari?

 

[JoeGKushner]

Can't list anything till I get home. Don't have the book with me.

One of my biggest problems with nerfing the demon lords isn't necessarily the demon lords. It's what happens to the devils.

The devils have a lot more unique ranks and heirarchy in their field than the demons do. For demons, it's pretty much iether you're named, standard, or lunch. For devils, we have all sorts of unique individuals that fall into different camps.

If a devil lord/prince is CR 20, what's his duke or champions? CR 15? Why not use a pit fiend then?

I can see why it was done. It's actually a good reason if we assume that any game that gets to near epic STOPs at near epic despite the epic rules you know, actually being in the DMG this time around (3.5) but for coolness.... it looks like it's up to Necromancer Games to keep Orcus tough.

 

[Mercule]

Hmm... I preferr even the aspects of demon lords to be stronger than a mature gold dragon. If we can have dragon CRs in the mid to high twenties, I don't see any reason to have demon lord CRs any lower than that.

Bah! Annoying. I'll have to look at the book, though, before I decide how much of a show-stopper that is. In this case, I'm more looking for some fluff, along with mechanics for how/why fiends can show up on the Prime, but don't over-run it. Glabrezu and Succubi (the tempters), especially, I'd like to know how they initiate their corruption.

 

[Razz]

Unholy crap blazing hellballs Batman!

Dude, what gives with the WEAKER demon lords? They made it sounds like they had a decent inbetween non-epic and epic, and with rules to attach in order to increase them to epic?

Now they're WEAKER than their 3.0 versions? Weaker than even the Dragon Magazine versions? What gives? What is WotC thinking?!

I hear it all the time "We don't pway epic wevel games blah blah blah". Yes, that is understood, boo to you who can't enjoy the awesome, anime-like, coolness of an epic game. Booooring! You can have your CR 10 Demon Lords for your games simply by taking that CR 35 or 40 creature and DOWN GRADING IT.

It's easier to weaken a creature than to make it stronger. I am not saying one cannot increase the HD by double or triple the amount, and I don't want to go in the direction of giving them divine ranks and placing Salient Divine abilities on them. What I am saying is giving them epic abilities like "One glare and all your innards spill out failing a Fortitude DC 40 and try to choke you to death on top of that" sort of abilities. Does anyone at WotC forget their epic monster creations from the Epic Level Handbook!? THOSE are more powerful than the demon lords, for some odd reason. And ~THAT's~ what my players, (at least my players) yearn to have epic duels or legendary campaigns with in the end when they finally retire at, I dunno, 28th or 30th level.

Well, you non-epic players enjoy. I am quite sad to see that you're ruining the awesome legendary strength I want to place in my games.

The molydeus CR 19 seems fine to me. I saw them as powerful, but not as powerful as balors. They were always second to them in 2E I believe, in power that is.

What's with the reprints? The goristro? We have that back in Manual of the Planes along with the 3.5 Update Booklet. I hope that was the only reprint, though a reprint of the Mane, Shadow Demon, Rutterkin, Chasme, and Bar-lgura is sorely needed because those haven't been updated to 3.5 from Book of Vile Darkness.

And yes, I agree with someone else who mentioned if you want to use weaker demon lords, then use their aspects. That's what they're there for.