Hordes of the Abyss.

[takasi]

If you are foolish enough to challenge Demogorgon in his lair in Gaping Maw (like, say, at the end of the Savage Tide Adventure Path), I think you can assume that he will be a good deal tougher than this.

I find it incredibly ironic that the only planned use of a demon lord in an upcoming adventure / campaign is epic level.

Confronting a demon lord in his lair is supposed to be the climax of a campaign. Savage Tide is the perfect example of using a high level stat lord. Mr. Mona, how can you seriously tell people that demon lords that are a "good deal tougher" in CR aren't useful if Dungoen is using one as an example of how to build a campaign???

 

[Razz]

Actually the real question should be this:

How did you get your hands on this book 3 weeks in advance?

 

[JoeGKushner]

Actually the real question should be this:

How did you get your hands on this book 3 weeks in advance?

It pays to have the chickens as your allies when seeking the fnord.

 

[Psion]

Speaking from personal experience, applying the paragon template to them works very well.

I've gotten some good mileage out of it.

But paragonning a demon prince? If you are going to mop the floor with the PCs, just say "he mops the floor with you guys." No need to get all fancy.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I find it incredibly ironic that the only planned use of a demon lord in an upcoming adventure / campaign is epic level.

Confronting a demon lord in his lair is supposed to be the climax of a campaign. Savage Tide is the perfect example of using a high level stat lord. Mr. Mona, how can you seriously tell people that demon lords that are a "good deal tougher" in CR aren't useful if Dungoen is using one as an example of how to build a campaign???

And don't forget a certain Demon Lord in the Shackled City. But at CR 23 he might be too powerful now....

 

[Psion]

Eh, when we saw CR 32, I was disappointed and my friend laughed so hard. Then he told the other guys, and Asmodeus has been a laughing stock ever since that day, with words like "Elminster's CR is higher than the Lord of all the Hells!" and such.

Some might fault Elminster's ridiculously Mary Sue design qualities instead of Asmodeus.

 

[Shade]

I've gotten some good mileage out of it.

But paragonning a demon prince? If you are going to mop the floor with the PCs, just say "he mops the floor with you guys." No need to get all fancy.

Trust me, the characters weren't that bad off, and there were six of them. Nontheless, they did lose.

 

[DaveMage]

Is everyone missing what Erik posted on page 1?

It seems like they are making a very good effort to address all concerned.

It'll probably be fine.

 

[Sammael]

If it was intended for the stats to represent avatars, than that's what the book should clearly state.

Now, I am not going to go as far as to suggest I won't be buying the book - because I'd be lying - but I am quite disappointed by this. Either give the demon lords proper stats, or no stats at all. For instance, a simple sentence such as "if encountered on his home layer in the Abyss, demon lord X has Divine Rank N, twice as many HD, and the following epic feats/divine salient abilities: yadda yadda yadda..." would have sufficed. WotC has abandoned the "must reprint all mechanics used in the book that uses them" at any rate, so I don't see any negatives to this approach.

Joe's concerns about the devils are mine as well. That's the reason for my extremely negative initial reaction. I now suspect that we'll have a whole bunch of CR 11-15 Dukes of Hell that can be easily killed by their cornugon bodyguards...

BTW, who was the book's editor? I have my suspicions of one particular person.

 

[Psion]

If it was intended for the stats to represent avatars, than that's what the book should clearly state.

Do we know that it doesn't?

Erik's already said it represents them "off their layer". Nobody's replicated the actual text on the subject, if any. Joe's said the book is not with him.